New CAP

kevthegaff · 26-10-2021 7:35pm #1

How do ye feel on the new changes?

paddysdream · 26-10-2021 7:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058214934/new-cap

Not happy but then I'm a farmer so what's new .

26-10-2021 7:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058214934/new-cap

Convergence heading in the right direction, more should have been done though.

Eco scheme needs more options IMO.

CRISS is a good thing for lower HA farms.

Not sure yet what the story is with the new environmental scheme.

Bigger problems coming at a lot of us besides CAP imo.

paddysdream · 26-10-2021 7:55pm

On a serious note I am still unhappy but I don't think there is gonna be any major changes to what is being proposed .

I will admit to having (had?) a decent BPS (started at about twice average per entitlement and small bit more than national average area )

At this stage reckon its down 30% in actual terms and a fair bit more allowing for inflation .Must actually check exact drop as area farmed is very same as 2005 .Could be miles out though .

Headline figure as per Minister is misleading as around here have yet to meet one farmer who will see the CAP give even what they were getting previously and any I have talked to will see a serious drop .

Mike Brady in todays Indo is spot on when he says that any eco-enviro scheme will have a poor enough uptake unless incentive is realistic. Back in 1995(?) REPS 1 was 7k plus in pounds which equates to almost 9k euros .That's 26 years ago and will be 30 years in the past when the final payments on any new scheme are drawn down .What sector would see a payment similar to what they got 30 years ago as a good idea ?

26-10-2021 8:00pm

€10k seems to be the top of the new environmental scheme payment, as always what will one have to do to draw that down... I've read in the meeja that one would need to either be in an EIP or have hen harriers or such. But, the grapevine has told me privately that's not so.

It's an interesting contrast seeing what I think are animal rights protesters scaling a DEFRA building over in the UK, farmers think we do protesting but honestly we're **** at it.

paddysdream · 26-10-2021 8:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077084#Comment_118077084

Think its 7k max if not in an SAC etc .Like I said REPS 1 was more than that 25 years ago and costs have moved on a fair bit in that time .

Talking to a couple of planners recently and they both said that the current REAP scheme was a joke

26-10-2021 8:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077148#Comment_118077148

I agree re costs, CAP not being index linked etc. What to do is the issue, which is why I find other groups ways of protesting interesting, plus what seems like a much better media operation than farming has. Other sectors aren't as dependent as farmers are, therefore have more bargaining/strike power. We're in an unhealthy position.

paddysdream · 26-10-2021 8:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077014#Comment_118077014

All the things that I don't like you seem to like !!!!

Convergence just means less for me ,eco scheme could be a problem here ,CRISS no help ,environmental scheme will be poorer than Glas I think ie less or similar money for a lot more expense/work .

Not sure re bigger problems you mention .Carbon/climate change sh**e ?

paddysdream · 26-10-2021 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077196#Comment_118077196

Perhaps not a better media operation ,rather we are the carbon climate change whipping boys at the moment and that won't change for a while .Amazing to think that people are so removed from reality that food production ie the single most important thing humans need along with heat and shelter , is reduced to competing with data centers ,importation of tat from China (guilty as charged ) and numerous other activities to get off the naughty step .

26-10-2021 8:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077216#Comment_118077216

If I have my own figures right I will lose a bit from where I am now, that needs to be seen from the perspective I haven't been a wet week getting a decent payment. I'm ok with that as I know what it's like being at the bottom of the barrel, and I don't have a problem with the low HA farms getting a top up through CRISS. I'll have to see the detail of the eco schemes T's & C's but there are...1, 2, possibly 3 that won't work for me/I don't like, all of a sudden my 5 options become 2 obligatory measures.

Reserving judgement on environmental scheme, like the eco scheme I need to see the T's & C's, what suits my neighbours doesn't always suit me as I'm heading down a different road.

Bigger problems are incoming designations, 13% of the country to 30% with 10% of the country "strictly protected", after that it'll be the half earth strategy ie 50% designations. A lot don't see this as a problem for them, but they will be at some point in the future. A bit like the song Yellow Triangle.

Not sure how the other stuff you mention will affect me, but if sea levels rise... I'll lose a lot of land in one place, and I'll lose road access to most of the rest (on an island).

paddysdream · 26-10-2021 8:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077266#Comment_118077266

350 feet over sea level here so a lot of wet nights before the water is lapping at my front door /field gate .

Designation of land etc I don't think will ever affect me here as its a mainly tillage area around here .

26-10-2021 8:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077288#Comment_118077288

A sea view is nice, nicer from a height. We lost a little bit of land in the Jan 2014 storms, took the soil right off the rock.

paddysdream · 26-10-2021 8:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077196#Comment_118077196

Protesting /striking is easy if everyone involved wants the same end result .For example if a factory staff go on strike for a 10% payrise then a win will see everyone's wages increase by whatever is finally agreed .

Farmer tractor protest in Dublin had about 40 different disparate groups looking for 40 different things ,some contradictory to others on the same protest .Same with beef factory blockade ;every man had a different end result in mind that would suit them all whilst others needed cattle killed at the same time .

Most protests are a waste of time ;just a safety valve to let off steam and politicians know this .Farmers are unable to withdraw labour or withhold produce so how can we protest like other sectors ? Plus each farmer is competing (often in his own mind only ) with other farmers so a lose lose situation .

26-10-2021 8:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077334#Comment_118077334

That's why I see the system itself as the biggest problem, not the other lad on the protest. Everyone shouts their own corner is understandable.

We're controlled to a high degree, by Government, factories, multiples, eNGO's etc. Our routes to market are controlled or made difficult/expensive and soon 3 out of every ten hectares will be controlled.

I live in a small village and we used have two slaughterhouses which did a roaring trade, none now. I bet applying for an on farm slaughter facility would be cheap and fun, not!

kevthegaff · 26-10-2021 9:23pm

I was getting about 170 a hectare plus disadvantage. How will I pan out?

eire23 · 26-10-2021 9:30pm

With the front loading or criss I think its called? It's paid on a max 30 hectares. Would it not have made more sense to pay it at a higher rate on lower hectares. It would have suited smaller farms better which was the idea i thought??

26-10-2021 9:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077557#Comment_118077557

I think 30 ha could be around the "average" size farm, I reckon that number was a political decision. Would have preferred 20 or less tbh.

wrangler · 26-10-2021 9:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077516#Comment_118077516

Here's IFAs calculator

https://d3mdtxxgfz6upn.cloudfront.net/WEBFILES/000/656/402/1733091-656402.jpg

eire23 · 26-10-2021 9:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077572#Comment_118077572

That would have made more sense id have thought.

The journal online had a bps calculator today, had to put in this year's payment and area farmed and it showed how you would far out in 2023. Might be of use to someone.

alps · 26-10-2021 11:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077593#Comment_118077593

No convergence included in that calculator.

Bass Reeves · 27-10-2021 12:04am

I am at present about 300/HA. I have 27HA in total but only 25 going into area aid. From 2023 it all will go into AA. I will get Eco scheme on it all and Criss top up on my 27HA payment I expect a small reduction. I would like if you got new entitlement with you previous payment spread over your larger area however that will not happen from what I understand. I will also get ANC on total HA.

Another advantage is around the ring larger payments will not have as much influence. I hope as well to increase my environment payment last time I was at only 1.7k I like to double that at least.

It worked out much as I predicted 5+, years ago so not overly surprised. Did not expect the convergence to be as high and with eco payment and CRISS it is actually 90%+ convergence.

Capital and lease value of payments will collapse as eco is decoupled from it. New payment per HA accross the country will be in the 150-200/ha average by 2026 with an eco payment of 65-80/HA and Criss of 43 on first 30HA.

eire23 · 27-10-2021 9:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077941#Comment_118077941

I seen that afterwards. Still. It gives a rough idea of where one might be in 2023 regards payments.

Bass Reeves · 27-10-2021 9:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118078759#Comment_118078759

There will be very little change from one year to the next. Unless you can see multiple years you cannot see the way payments are going

eire23 · 27-10-2021 9:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118078871#Comment_118078871

You can on that farmers journal calculator. You put in this year's payment and your total hectares farmed But its presuming that you get the full 25% eco top up amd it gives you the full breakdown.

If your payments are still above the national average ya can take it that it will be going down another bit

893bet · 27-10-2021 10:36am

Link to farmers journal calculato? I can’t see it on their site

Base price · 27-10-2021 10:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118079238#Comment_118079238

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/toolbox/sfp.php

This is the only one that I could find and I don't think it's correct as the dates are wrong.

Base price · 27-10-2021 11:00am

Here it is - https://www.farmersjournal.ie/calculate-your-2023-basic-payment-now-656462

kevthegaff · 27-10-2021 12:44pm

How will it affect rented land, I have 10 hectares I give back the money..

Bass Reeves · 27-10-2021 12:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118079372#Comment_118079372

They ate making a few incorrect assumptions. They are not allowing for area on farm that was ineligible for payments this is now entitled to eco. They are assuming that eco will be only 63 euro. This is more like to be in the he 75-80 euro range.

With capping at 6OishK some intensive farmers with payments of 70-100 k may decide to forego eco payment if there limit can be applied to BLISS part only. There will be farmers that will have no interest in our eco as well.

Bass Reeves · 27-10-2021 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118080010#Comment_118080010

Technically now all you will have to give back is the BLISS element. Eco is decoupled. There will be some fair battles over this and it could go to legal in places.

How long is left in the lease contract. As well as Criss is only paid on first 30 HA I would think it is tenants so that will hit higher leased payments as well

kevthegaff · 27-10-2021 12:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118080067#Comment_118080067

Only 3 left after this year, between inputs and this you would imagine prices will drop?

mr.stonewall · 27-10-2021 12:59pm

Just quick one. Will agroforestry count towards the eco schemes unoccupied area?? Just thinking of plan

Bass Reeves · 27-10-2021 1:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118080087#Comment_118080087

I was always of the opinion that leasing was a pyramid scheme and unsustainable. It was basically a way to get lads with smaller land areas leased. It was as only feasible with dairy expansion and young farmer top ups. Basically both these funded it.

I could never understand the theory that cropped up this year that nitrates rules and stocking levels would increase leasing costs. It even cropped it head in the fertlizer cost debate.

If margins reduce due to costs and regulations you have to look at reducing output levels rather than maintaing them. There was a really good article a few weeks ago in the FI I think that spoke about expansion and that you need to look at the extra cost of such production and allow for the reduction in overall margin.

If you 100 cows milking and a margin of 20c/K. If you expand by 20 cows and you profit on these is 10 c/ L, is it worth it. In theory it looks good as you have an overall margin and 18.3/L

27-10-2021 1:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118080140#Comment_118080140

Interesting question, AF on your own, or subsidised AF? (If it exists, can't recall). I'd hazard a guess if subsidised trees are being planted for one scheme, they won't qualify for eco scheme but I'm only guessing.

n1st · 27-10-2021 1:30pm

Progress in the right direction.

We must get on top of the artificial fertilizers, slurry and removal of nature from the land.

For farmers there's little point in talking about climate change, the message does not seem to get through.

Bodiversity is what we need, less concentrated farming, less one trick pony.

Hopefully young and small farmers change their ways and include nature and diversity in their plans.

Bass Reeves · 27-10-2021 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077334#Comment_118077334

IFA was completely out taught and put fought on this CAP deal. It's interesting that the FI had a large article in the leader of the INHFA yesterday. On a miniscule budget and with a very small staff it secured virtually everything it looked for.

IFA taught the battle was going to be fought here, get the minister and Department on your side and everything would be ok.

The INHFA went to Brussels and did all there lobbying there with Ming, the Greens and probably with the help of Marion Harkins.

The IFA was completely blindsided. But it went out with unsustainable demands. Upward only convergence, no expansion of eco/ greening, looking for massive CAP budget expansion. It taught it had the battle won in Ireland and it had the last five years to explain to it's membership that there would be changes. It chose not to recognise and adapt a policy with that in mind. It got a kick in the hole in Brussels and another from the Minister and the Greens when they came home.

It's a massively weakened organisation with a large older inactive membership allied to now only being really a larger dairy and tillage farmer organisation. It can no longer wield the promise of the farmer vote even of ten years ago.

Dinzee Conlee · 27-10-2021 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118080287#Comment_118080287

Would think so too…

agro forestry is classed as forestry land, not Agri land (if you claim the agro forestry grants)

So any land under agroforestry would not be eligible for any Agri schemes such as organics or REAP/GLAS…

Hard to imagine it would qualify for BPS eco scheme…

wrangler · 27-10-2021 2:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118080527#Comment_118080527

Don't be stupid, the results were a foregone conclusion, INHFA done nothing and won nothing. We heard the same rubbish in 2013 and we knew we pulled a stunt against all odds and I've the guts of 200 grand that I should've never got. I knew it wasn't going to happen again. 😂😂😂😂

INHFA got everything it looked for alright.......ten years too late. Marion Harkin threatened all sorts on us in that 2012 campaign, I wonder does she still remember that meeting in 2012 where she tried to tell me we wouldn't get our way, that was some crack.

Yea, we even got an extra three years on the good entitlements as the last CAP reform was only to last to 2019.

In all seriousness how could 2003 entitlements be relevant in 2023 ... or even 2013 are you for real 😂😂😂

27-10-2021 5:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118080790#Comment_118080790

Crocodile tears when you're cribbing about -€25,000 in another thread, but you're consistent.

27-10-2021 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118080758#Comment_118080758

I don't know about AF as it'd be too difficult to implement on my farm, but I remember for Native Woodland scheme, BPS etc was all paid along with the NWS grant.

mr.stonewall · 27-10-2021 5:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118080758#Comment_118080758

Just doing a bit do digging on it. Agroforestry has a premium of €645/ha annually for 5 year and an establishment grant of €5620/ha. Looking at the current bps terms and conditions for 2021 pic below, forestry can revert to collecting bps after the premium has been concluded, ie after 5years, The interesting argument will be can it be used to collect the eco scheme monies, now that they are decoupled from Biss.

Screenshot_2021-10-27-18-20-48-424_com.google.android.apps.docs.jpg

27-10-2021 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118080527#Comment_118080527

INHFA was too late in the last CAP, hadn't even been properly formed possibly. This time was always going to be different. There are some incredibly capable characters involved in it. I'd agree with Vincent Roddy saying without Dacien Ciolos convergence to 60% would not have happened. Ming was also very important, for a townie he does a great job for the majority of Irish family farms.

Harkin said during one Euro election to Mairead McGuinness that no one disagreed with bringing the most possible money back to Ireland, but that the problem was how it got divided at home. That has proven correct over the years.

Dinzee Conlee · 27-10-2021 5:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118081575#Comment_118081575

Yes - this is what I would be afraid of, you might get the basic BPS, but that might be all…

Also, it’s currently not possible to have agroforestry land in any new scheme (such as low input pasture or the likes) So you are locking yourself out of new schemes…

Edit - 645/ha for 5 years for agroforestry

vs

REAP scheme is paying 250-500/ha. Assuming that kinda payment will continue, it wouldn’t be long equaling the agroforestry payments…

I looked into agroforestry before. And that was one thing that put me off. Plus if you ever wanted to sell it, it’s value would be much lower…

wrangler · 27-10-2021 5:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118081546#Comment_118081546

I'm well prepared to lose it all now, I could've insisted on not letting my land without entitlements but I considered it not fair . Tenants wanted to use their own entitlements

Those subsidies were allocated to drystock farmers in the 1990s because they were needed, nothing has changed since, they're still needed, but dairy farmers are getting most of them now.....

27-10-2021 5:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118081664#Comment_118081664

Have to move with the times, the 90's are ancient history.

As much as you like laughing at independents, saying they can do nothing, it was Mings amendment to the Agri committee in 2019 that got 85% convergence. He was instrumental in other things as well. I don't agree with him on all things, but he's doing a damn good job addressing a broken system for the majority of farmers.

wrangler · 27-10-2021 6:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118081707#Comment_118081707

Drystock still need subsidies as much as ever .

With convergence, Ming was kicking an open door this time. Don't think IFA ever really thought they'd make any impression on the proposed CAP, The success of CAP 2013 must've went to their head

From what I remember you've a lot of land as do a lot of farmers in your area. The number of hectares brings up their payments. But that's not some thing you boast about publicly

You've opportunities for working off farm where as intensive farmers don't.

I'll get my tin hat now 😂

27-10-2021 7:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118081801#Comment_118081801

Since when did need come into it. CAP is made up of politically manipulated public funding. It's a tool to control land/raw materials for others gain.

The flapping from IFA about productive, commercial, etc farmers and recent rent a mob protests shows they had no strategy. It was hoof the ball up into the corner and waste time moaning about a budget already set, everyone and their guide dog saw through it.

In Maam Cross I publicly said I now, duration one wet week, have a decent payment, and I asked the minister to take some of it off me to give to low hectare farmers. Remember those lads and ladies, the ones some organisations made their poster children until they privately threw them all under the bus at the first opportunity in meetings with the minister which other orgs attended.

I also have a lot of nationalised designated lands, which have never been recognised in any form. That will be coming to townlands near a lot of folks sooner not later in this decade.

I don't tend to boast generally.

If "intensive", "productive", or "commercial" farmers don't have opportunities outside of the farm gate it is because they choose not to. There's no armed guards keeping them chained to a farm. I work on the farm of my own free will.

You're missing the target so the tin hat can stay up on the shelf.

wrangler · 27-10-2021 8:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082176#Comment_118082176

Hold on, I put together those payments according to the terms and conditions of CAP.

No matter how you dress it up, farmers are now trying to take other farmers income.

We only tried to retain our own income, it's a completely different thing .

No one threw anyone under a bus as the poor divils had missed the bus at the start, what we had to work for, they want for nothing.

I was proud of holding on to our subs in 2013, don't know if you could say the same about now.

At a meeting in 2013 I gave ming an example of two farmers one with under a hundred ewes and the other, my farm with 550ewes. by 2021 we were supposed to have similar BPS. You know that to be a real a real example and it doesn't make good reading....... I've about a hundred ewes myself now and you really couldn't call it busy or even work, yet there's a substantial sub now for that farmer just for a bit of lobbying. Yet I'm the bad guy.

There's something very wrong there if you can get that for doing nothing

kevthegaff · 27-10-2021 8:39pm

Maybe it went too far one way in 2003 and now it's gone too far the other way. Somewhere in between.

eire23 · 27-10-2021 8:40pm

What peoples thought on leased land and entitlements amd how it will work out?

I'm currently half way through a lease and I'm Drawing the entitlements in my name on the land. Any chance I'd end up with them or is that wishful thinking?

27-10-2021 8:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082359#Comment_118082359

You're living in the past, the European agenda has moved away from production. The T's & C's of CAP now favour different things. Shout at the tide to stay out all you like it'll still come in.

For years you have said on here no farmer will argue against their own sector, now you complain about others lobbying and building convincing arguments for their interests.

The low hectare farms in Ireland were "used", abused might be a better word, as an argument to keep those on high payments on those high payments. Once CRISS was proposed, those users threw those low hectare farmers under the bus, and reversed back over them several times.

The only person calling you a bad guy is yourself, give the victim complex a rest.

Being stuck in the production rut when the agenda has moved away from production and believing European and Irish tax payers funding is "ours" is what's driving you nuts, not me.

New CAP

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