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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't think they even looked into sourcing where the wine came from. Not that garda incompetence surprises me anymore in this case.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It was 8.40am but you have the stages of daylight prior to that.

    There's several: sophies blood was still wet when the first officer on scene saw her body, there was a basket loaf of bread out with knife about to be cut, food indicating cereal found in her stomach and recently ingested, a packet of Jordans muesli on shelf which suggests it was that, and notably zero alcohol in tox report despite 2 glasses of wine with Ungerers and at least one in evening verified by wine glass on mantlepiece.

    The bottle was found the following April so any forensics likely destroyed by winter weather.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,159 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Yes the forensics were probably gone by the time it was found but the make, year, date of purchase, place of purchase, name of buyer, if it was a favourite of hers were traceable. Like the missing poker/axe it could be very relevant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    If the bottle was found in April the next year anybody visiting the cottage since the murder could have brought it. Like her husband or her son taking care of things at the cottage? It might be totally unrelated to the murder, or then it might also not.....



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,159 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    As far as I can recall it was found in a ditch in a nearby field, 4 months later. Can't see that it would be unrelated to the murder, just too weird.

    Post edited by saabsaab on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I can't see any relevance to the bottle of French wine, if it was clear that it was put there after the murder. Either the Guards / forensics missed it due to incompetence, or it was placed there after the murder. We simply don't know.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Why on earth would they fling a bottle of expensive wine into a neighboring fields ditch & why wouldn't they have come forward about it before now if they had. Also, her husband didnt travel until well after this I'm sure and whether her son traveled or not who was only 15/16 in this time period is unknown. Yes, someone related to her may have flung this bottle of wine a while after her murder into the ditch in a fit of rage, its just unlikely, that's all. We'll never know because like a lot of things, it wasn't followed up on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Expensive bottle of French wine most likely lifted by someone with access to Sophie's house either before or after the murder.

    If before the murder it wouldn't look good if found in the house of the thief, so was disposed of by someone

    with access to the area in which it was found, maybe to steer the investigation away from the locality -towards France?.

    Who found the bottle and where was it was found ?

    I doubt it was taken after the murder as it would be part of an inventory from the crime scene, but still possible

    and placed where it was "found" to steer the investigation towards France



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    My theory about the bottle of wine is that it was stolen from her house sometime in '95 or '96 or even on the Sunday she was away from the house and was the kind that gets kept for a special occasion. It was thrown away after she was murdered because whoever had it definitely didn't want to be found with it. Obviously there are only a few people would have had the opportunity. Could be as simple as that.

    You could take that further and say it might have been a banal reason for a confrontation. I'd be very pissed off about something like that and might even accuse someone of stealing from me with no proof, but we all make mistakes.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197



    Again, highly unlikely, even if the thief or perpetrator wasn't somewhat forensically aware (and again, thats unlikely because not a shred of identifiable DNA other than sophie's was found at the scene) , why take the chance of robbing a bottle of wine and then flinging it into a nearby ditch. Nonsensical.

    The theory that it was planted there is somewhat implausible too, I think you're giving too much credit to the perpetrators intelligence to be smart & canny enough to think outside of the box like that. Its reaching too.

    It was found in a neighboring ditch so it's unlikely it would have been part of the crime scene that was investigated especially considering what we know about the so called investigation.

    STDP was artistic, high society in France & seemed quite proud to be French. An expensive bottle of uncommon French wine would have been exactly the type of thing someone in her position would have liked to drink imo. Either it was someone who wanted to impress her in the locality with this type of wine or it was someone she knew previously who knew she liked this type of wine. Both scenarios are not mutually exclusive & point to the perpetrator knowing a number of things about her, not some random drunk madman or hitman or drug affiliated individual who was caught doing something they shouldn't be.

    I think a horny cocky local man in a position of authority fancied his chances with her if he turned up on her door with this. Partly because she probably had a reputation in the locality, the man fancied himself as a charmer & partly because he was in a position of power. When it went south, he lost the head (bruised ego), battered her to death & fucked the bottle into a ditch probably as he was speeding away out his car window. Probably not thinking straight.

    People in the know see where this is pointing again, just my two cents anyway.

    No way a bottle of this type of wine ends up in a nearby ditch like this randomly, the wine is as relevant as the gate & other evidence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    But say you robbed the wine from her house and didnt want to be associated with the crime, why throw it away so soon after the murder in a ditch near to the murder. Madness



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Someone here said that it was John Hellen that found it. Is that true? He had been up at her house on Saturday with his father. All curious



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    The murder was impulsive, a fit of rage, I think everyone here agrees with that. This being the case, it doesn't point to Bailey then walking to Kaelfadda bridge, washing himself down, removing all DNA links to the scene, then going home & making Jules a cup of morning coffee a few hours before he starts eagerly reporting on the crime. All the while being drunk that night. I know adrenaline can make us do extraordinary things but this is stretching it.

    Wine bottle that was refused being thrown away into a nearby ditch fits the rage killing, guy in a fiesta seen speeding away fits the rage killing, body left in the position it was on the driveway fits the rage killing. Many other things fit the type of killing it was.

    Bailey does not fit the rage killing



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "He had been up at her house on Saturday with his father. All curious"

    On the Sunday it was, on their way to Toormore walking.

    Plus they got the timing wrong, said it was about 2:30 whereas Sophie's car was seen in Schull at 2 pm



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Was it found in an area that had already been searched?



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    I think it's far more probable that Sophie bought that bottle of wine given it looks to have come from an airport shop.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    No, its highly improbable because why would the bottle of wine which is known to be expensive be found in a nearby ditch like that so. If it was hers, why on earth would the perpetrator take the wine & then throw it into a nearby ditch, makes no sense. The perpetrator fancied a few slugs of his victims expensive wine and then threw it into a nearby ditch after changing his mind?? I dont think so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,159 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Unlikely that the bottle was 'planted'. Why plant in a field away in a ditch, where it might never be found (was 4 month approx) instead of on the site somewhere. As for pointing exclusively to France, not really, could be anyone travelling to visit or Sophies'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "Again, highly unlikely, even if the thief or perpetrator wasn't somewhat forensically aware (and again, thats unlikely because not a shred of identifiable DNA other than sophie's was found at the scene) , why take the chance of robbing a bottle of wine and then flinging it into a nearby ditch. Nonsensical.

    Not so nonsensical if taken before the murder!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Thats what I'm saying!!!! High unlikely the perpetrator stole her wine with a view to taking a few slugs & threw it into a nearby ditch. Doesnt make sense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    You need to think outside the box,

    why not plant it in a field where it would be "found"?



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    I think you're overthinking this one. The idea of someone trying to impress a high society French woman with a bottle of wine she could have picked up in duty-free is a bit far fetched. I think it was robbed. It was discarded quite a distance (1 km maybe) from the house and whoever found it would be discounted as a suspect given their fingerprints were obviously going to be on the bottle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    " ...even if the thief or perpetrator wasn't somewhat forensically aware (and again, thats unlikely because not a shred of identifiable DNA other than sophie's was found at the scene)..."


    "I think you're giving too much credit to the perpetrators intelligence to be smart & canny enough to think outside of the box like that..."

    So was he smart or not ?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The bottle was found by John hellen in April 97 while he was working the land. The Hellens had a fair bit of land by the sound of it, but this land wasn't directly by sophies House.

    It was on the kelfaddagh Road, as you turn left out of the lane that leads to sophies house, by an old path that leads up a hill on the right hand side of the road. I've looked this up on Google earth and found a couple of possible locations, however in 25 years I'm going to assume that this path has overgrown, unless you continue round the bend, but the info I recieved re the statement, doesn't mention the bend.

    Either way, this was the way to Bantry. Far more likely that if this bottle of wine was left by the perp, he was driving in that direction. It doesn't fit the IB theory of walking everywhere half cut then heading back to kealfadda bridge which we know is nonsense anyway.

    It might be nothing to do with the murder, of course, but like other items that at the time held no forensic value, was "lost" 🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,159 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Can you tell roughly how far was it from her house? Does anyone have a photo of it?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You just have to go by what I heard is in that statement, really. It's difficult to get a specific



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,900 Mod ✭✭✭✭whiterebel


    Maybe whoever was using the bath nicked the wine, and then didn't want to get caught with it?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I disagree with the idea that the murder was impulsive and something out of range, as we simply don't know. For the murder to be impulsive and totally unplanned, I'd expect more evidence on the murder site, however we have nothing here. Either there was really nothing there, or it was the incompetence by police or forensics? The murderer must at least have known that Sophie was at the cottage at the unusual time before Christmas, and that the Richardsons were not at home at the time, which leads to the idea that he has had local knowledge, or was given this knowledge by somebody who was local. Suppose Alfie and Shirley really didn't hear anything that night, because they were sound sleepers, I doubt that the Richardsons would have had a similar experience, if Sophie had screamed. Their house is practically in sight of the murder scene, or at least the site where Sophie was found.

    Also regarding the bottle of wine, I think it's over-interpreted. On the one side it seems strange and out of place to just lose a full and unopened bottle of expensive French wine, but also on this one we don't know and can only speculate. We can't pin the bottle on anybody, not Sophie, not the killer, not possibly one of the neighbours, not Bailey. Did Alfie and Shirley ever visit France and bring back wine, did Bruno bring wine over? We don't even know how long the bottle has been there, or whether it's been there when the murder happened, or been left there way later on. We also don't know with certainty that this particular wine was really never sold in any special wine store in Ireland. It is not impossible that the bottle was sold in Ireland in some special wine store which specialises in wines from France or anywhere in Europe, Italy, Spain, etc... Even though rare, stores like this existed in Ireland, even back then, whether that bottle was from such a store, again, we don't know.

    Regarding Bailey, I'd say rage could very well have been part of his behaviour, especially after a few stronger drinks. With Bailey on the scene, it would also not have been a quiet encounter, I'd say, it would have been a loud event. What I can't imagine is Bailey hiking over on foot to Sophie's after a night out in the pub, building up a rage while hiking for one hour, killing her, hiking back, cleaning up and never leaving any traces. I'd suggest Bailey would not have been so calculated.



This discussion has been closed.
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