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exodus of small investors from the Irish rental sector has reduced the number of available tenancies

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,866 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Any existing small LL will have bought their properties at past prices (possibly decades ago). The cost of owning the property wont have changed much but they will be benefitting from the current high rents. I'd say those selling up are mostly those who covered most/all of the cost of the property and are getting a massive windfall due to high selling prices. The existence of REITs hasn't really changed much for the small LL, certainly not in terms of their costs. Some even claim the REITs have increased rents. It may prevent them acquiring more properties but given the complaints here about tax, that is unlikely anyway.

    Despite what some have said, there are obvious economy of scale benefits to owning and operating a large number of units, particularly apartments. Maintenance costs and replacements are built in to the overall project. Assets are depreciated and written off over time. They also get better prices on appliances as part of an overall FM system than someone buying a single item.

    I know this won't be a popular here but those exodusing are doing so because it is beneficial to them, it's not something to be lamented. They are not being driven out, rather opportunistically leaving at a good time (as is their right and likely a good business decision). If the small LL was so worried about tenants then they could remain in the game. It seems more like small LLs are angling for a tax break and if not they sell up, either way they win.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,548 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Correct its even unlikely that the larger corporate REIT's will operate much outside Dublin and Cork

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    What they hoover up depends on what the local authority has signalled to them that they are willing to long term lease off them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,548 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Incorrect, they are depending on a high property price who's yield can allow them an ability to get a return and cover there excessive costs. This idea that the savings that they might make on appliances will make a significant saving that allows them reduc d there costs versus smaller LK's is a F@@king delusion.

    The government has indicated that LA will now stop leasing from Private entityand individuals. Therefore REIT's will depend on the private market. This means that they will need returns of 2k/ month to be able to generate enought income to cover costs

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    No you are mistaken. My former property was bought for 210,000 by one of these companies. Set a high water mark for the estate and the property beside it was bought for roughly the same amount by another one. I looked them up on land registry. They were bought piece meal, not in blocks.

    They were being bought for the leasing to the local Authority.

    The investment vehicles aren't choosey as to what they are buying as long as they can currently be rented and a market value for that asset made reckonable off the income that it can generate. They have small investors buying in to the housing funds. What separates these funds from junk bonds remains to be seen. They have value so long as the properties are showing as being rentable.

    Are you scared yet?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Have you a link to that change in Government/LA policy? Have the LAs bought that many properties recently?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    There is another side to this story, it might not be many people but a few fall into this:


    Accidental of reluctant landlords exiting because the value of the property has for the first time in a decade brought them out of negative equity, or back to the original high price that was initially paid and they can cut their losses and not have to pay over half the rent in tax.

    if they are lucky come out with a few quid to clear a loan or make a payment off their primary home. Any profits are subject to CGT so the gov get their pound of flesh as well.

    Not every landlord is wealthy, many are just ordinary people working ordinary jobs trying to live.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik



    It wasnt Bellevue Property Investments was it?

    I found out that was who bought my house. It was all very cloak and dagger and done through their solicitor.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    Davy Property ICAV investment vehicle.

    Another by allied Irish Properties.

    These may not be top tier REIT but they are operating matching "money" with "investment opportunities".

    When the tide goes out we will see who was swimming naked. Some may be better than others.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    The cost of ownership has risen from decades ago. Maintenance costs are higher, insurance is higher and there are more regulations to be complied with as well as registration fees. Taxes on rents are higher as well. Those who had PAYE income did not have to pay PRSI and one time and many also had S23 allowances.

    Many are also rent capped and can't avail of the current high rents.

    People are getting out because they are sick of it. This is perfectly normal. There are always people who try being a landlord and find that they are not temperamentally suited to it. The real problem is that people who leave are not being replaced. At a time of record low interest rates, having a residential investment should be a no-brainer for a lot of people but in the current environment they prefer to leave the money in the Post Office.

    Post edited by Claw Hammer on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,866 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Of course some costs have risen over time, that is pretty standard in every business. People may be getting out because they are sick of it but also because the current prices which can be achieved by selling make it more attractive. The properties are either bought by occupiers or those who will let them out again so there isn't a negative impact on the overall property market (properties removed from rental are put up for sale which is also under supplied).

    The cost of buying, as well as the lack of financing for buy to let properties means there are very few new small LLs. I don't really see the negative in the shift from small LL to large funds. The funds are actually building units which increases the supply. Small LL would be competing with occupiers and I see no longer having that as a positive. Yes there are issues around funds and the tax they pay but these really need to be addressed after they have built enough units, not before which would act as a disincentive to develop.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,548 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Your property was purchased for direct leasing to a LA. LA are stopping this practice at present. You also made my point that they are not buying one off properties to rent. This will mean that outside of large urban centers you will still be dependent on smaller scale LL's


    It has been discussed on the 2021 property thread. Some LA are already stopping long leases from LL's. Meath has stopped completely according to one poster and some Dublin LA has stopped taking apartments which was there mainstay.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    They bought one property. Another investment vehicle bought another property. How did you misunderstand that?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,548 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    I did not what I posted was that the practicing is stopping. They purchased them from direct leasing to a LA. They will not buy them to lease to Johnny that is working in the meat plant in Rathkeale or Mary that has a job in the Kerry Co-op plant in Listowel unless it is through a LA longterm lease.

    I do not know what part of that you do not get. REITS will only operate in areas where there are high gross rents or where they are gauranteed long LA leases

    The rest of the country is dependyon smaller LL with 2-3 properties.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    You really aren't getting the point. There is money to buy through property investment funds of which some aren't top tier REITs. I make reference to junk bonds and while I'm not yet calling them equivalent to junk bonds they might be soon.

    Most people look at the movie "The Big Short" and think that mustn't be allowed happen again. The sociopaths in the audience look it and think "They made out like bandits and got away without consequences. I want some of that.".

    I was aware for quite a while that from 22 no more long term leases were to be entered in to and I believe I mentioned it here on the forum but I'm not going to trawl my old posts. Personally, I'll believe it when I see it as the Government still needs to keep housing provision off the books and recorded as current spending. They'll find another way to work around it because they simply can't provide enough social housing to meet demand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    Dublin Council seeking exemption from plan to end end long term leasing so could well be with us for a good while more

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/dublin-council-to-seek-exemption-from-plan-to-end-long-term-leasing-of-social-housing-1.4711199



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Maybe they could seek an end to the difference in taxation between normal landlords and REITs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Rented properties tend to be used less efficiently, as in having fewer occupants than owner occupied. The result of rental units being sold off to owner occupiers means there is less accommodation available generally. Having a tihght supply drives up rents which mitigates against renters being able to buy eventually.

    the funds are the only players who can build at the moment. It doesn't mean that this should continue. The funds are generally only interested in specific sectors and also trying to get the highest possible rent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,866 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    It may have been the case historically (although I'dalso query that) but I seriously doubt rented units are used less efficiently than owner occupiedunits now.

    I know plenty of individuals and childless couples who own two/three bedroom units. There's also lots of empty nesters out there with permanently empty bedrooms. I also know plenty of pairs/groups of individuals renting properties and every bedroom is occupied, it has to be to cover the rent. Very few families can afford to rent a property with an additional occasionally used bedroom.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    I meant the opposite. Rented units are used more efficiently. The more which leave they system the worse it gets for the remaining renters.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,384 ✭✭✭✭Geuze



    How could anybody still be in negative equity in 2021?

    Surely ten years of mortgage repayments would have lifted them out of negative equity?

    The only reason I can see for remaining negative equity is somebody who has an interest-only mortgage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    The numbers in NE must be declining all the timee, but we are still below peak tiger prices https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/housing-index



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    Negative equity doesn't mean worth less than paid it means owe more than worth.

    From link peak is 165 points currently at 150, so just over 90% of peak value, 12 yrs of mortgage payments would have easily paid of that much unless they were interest only the majority of that time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 529 ✭✭✭Smouse156


    Negative Equity means the mortgage on the property is greater than the property’s value. Not that they paid more for it than it’s currently worth. Almost no property is in negative equity bar ultra expensive or interest only mortgage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭Thestart


    927 rental properties in daft today. I put in Dublin as the search.

    1200+ only a month ago.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,393 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    I see some people think it is people selling up because they now can cash in on their investments. I am sure some are doing that but I know long term landlords that planned on having rent as income and pass on property to family later on and they are selling. Talking about people who provided a services for half a century deciding it isn't worth it now.

    It is a pension for many people. Everyone is about to be forced to have a pension, pension age going up and their isn't enough money in most pensions. The government are punishing people for taking care of themselves and not a burden to the state. Landlords paying PRSI for a pension when already retired and means tested out of other benefits. Doesn't really seem fair



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Exactly. Noone I know who was a landlord and has got out in the last couple of years got out because they wanted to. They would rather have continued, but the risk profile of the investment plus the ever changing legislation have made it impossible for them to justify staying.

    Any bets on when the legislation for no rent increases and indefinite tenancies comes in?

    My bet is Christmas week.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,393 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    What people often forget about the peak was the sales were minuscule at that point. Barely anybody bought at the peak hence the crash. Sales diminished so much you should really look at the sale prices from the year before to get a better idea.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    You buy shares or are in an investment fund then you can usually cash out a small portion if the SHTF or just need enough cash to buy rice and potatoes. If you are in property then you are "in" property all the way down. If you are over-exposed to property then it can destroy your life. At a certain point if investments are going well and risk spread then you can "afford" to expose yourself to the asset class...maybe 20 to 30% of your total investments.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Genuine question, but how do indefinite tenancies work?

    Say the current landlord is selling up and the indefinite tenancy goes with the property, then can the only buyer be another investor who never wants to live in that property? Does the tenancy continue until the tenant dies? Then what happens if other members of the tenants family still live in the property - does the tenancy pass to them?

    Does it mean a privately rented property could never again be owner-occupied?

    Surely an owner or his family would be entitled to live in their own property.

    Post edited by mrslancaster on


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