Energy infrastructure

josip · 27-10-2021 3:20pm

"The west coast developments are further behind than the east coast due to the depth of the waters. But the potential off the west coast is insane. The size of the area, the wind speeds available....... honestly we could end up with a Saudi Arabia level of surplus energy if they went the whole hog on it."

Would we not end up with the same problem as described in the Sahara Solar Panel video?

By the time you factor in the interconnector cost of getting the generated power to the UK/Europe, there is no longer a business case.

Maybe there's a business case to converting to Green Hydrogen and shipping it, but it's not as easy as some might think.

https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/too-cold-handle-race-is-pioneer-shipping-hydrogen-2021-05-11/

cruizer101 · 27-10-2021 6:16pm

To me the main issue from the video wasn't so much interconnecter losses as African political instability issues, which isn't a worry here.

Also interconnector to France is a small enough distance.

On green hydrogen, it is tricky to transport, but no reason we can't convert to ammonia which is used in fertiliser and there is huge requirement for, most of which comes from fossil fuels currently. Or potentially convert to methane for which there is already a pipeline.

Banana Republic 1 · 27-10-2021 6:43pm

https://theconversation.com/what-europes-exceptionally-low-winds-mean-for-the-future-energy-grid-170135

….

Sam Russell · 27-10-2021 7:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118081654#Comment_118081654

Is this the same effect seen in the jet-stream, which has become very erratic in the last few decades.

The explanation given is the warming of the artic ice which has reduced the difference between the ice cap temperatures and the equatorial temperatures, reducing the power that drives the jet stream. Previously the jet stream screamed across the upper atmosphere, trapped by the Rockies, but otherwise moving a bit north or south as it travelled around the globe, causing the 'good' or 'bad' summers depending on whether it was north or south of us.

It now meanders its way around, looping and turning as it sees fit - like it has no power left.

All we need is for the Gulf Stream to stop and we are in real trouble, and that is a possibility.

bk · 27-10-2021 7:56pm

Some extra options in addition to shipping Hydrogen and Green Ammonia mentioned above.

We could potentially pump Hydrogen to the UK via the gas interconnector.
We could build energy intensive industries / data centers, on the West Coast, could really increase the economy of that region.

I don't think we are likely to become then next Saudi Arabia. But we could absolutely switch from being a net importer of energy to a net exporter of energy which would be a very nice boost for our economy. But more importantly it would mean we would have true security of supply and wouldn't be tied to the politics and flucating prices of Saudi oil and Russian gas.

Markcheese · 27-10-2021 8:36pm

I don't see much spare wind capacity going to hydrogen production not in the short term , who's going to build an expensive hydrogen infrastructure based on occaisional energy -

I could see a series of huge wind developments being built specifically to power hydrogen electrolysis - but probably not In Ireland - off shore wind is expensive - deep water off shore even more so - with the energy loses involved in transmission , production - compression - transport and then generation I can't see it working with expensive electricity ...

gjim · 27-10-2021 9:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071786#Comment_118071786

I love the idea of this project and initially thought it was genius but now I'm pretty sure it will never happen. Unfortunately I think all such projects are probably doomed (like the Singapore to Australia one) by basic financial arithmetic.

It comes down to the disruption caused by the huge the fall in solar PV panel prices - prices having dropped by 90% or more in just over a decade.

The attraction of something like xlinks is been that you put your PV panels in a location which maximises their efficiency even if you have to pay for extra infrastructure (underwater HVDC cable). In their press/marketing stuff they claim that panels are over twice as efficient as panels sited in the UK. Sounds great.

But panels have become so cheap, that it has become cheaper and easier to just buy twice or three times the number of panels and set them up locally even if your location is not ideal for solar.

In the case of this project over half of the $21B budget goes on the HDVC cable and related infrastructure. But by not spending money on the cable you could buy twice as much solar (and wind and battery storage which are also part of the plan) and site them in the UK making up for the loss of efficiency.

Markcheese · 27-10-2021 9:52pm

It's also the winter sun in Morocco -

27-10-2021 9:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082585#Comment_118082585

All true, but in the case of Singapore, their biggest issue in relation to solar, is they don't have the spare space to deploy it

Really good article on the issues facing them

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/solar-energy-singapore-panels-cloudy-unpredictable-electricity-1882996

gjim · 27-10-2021 10:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082199#Comment_118082199

Me neither - intermittent sources are not a good partner for capital intensive facilities like an electrolysis plant.

I don't see the problem with having "too much" wind capacity. I don't think it will be an issue at all. Saving the planet will require de-carbonising all energy, not just electricity production. In particular, transport and home heating/cooking will be electrified - these are great partners for intermittent sources. A fully electrified vehicle fleet in Ireland would contain about 100TWh of batteries - that a lot of capacity to help smoothen out any demand/supply mismatches. Same with home heating.

Sam Russell · 28-10-2021 10:42am

Home heating is best tackled by higher insulation levels and heat recovery ventilation, not electric heating.

Retrofitting air to water heat pumps have been disappointing in not giving the expected returns. Solar PV and solar hot water would be better investments. Heat pumps work best in well insulated new builds with very good BER values like A rating.

bob mcbob · 28-10-2021 11:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118081510#Comment_118081510

Companies are already storing hydrogen in metal hydride powders. These powders can be transported to where needed, then the hydrogen can be released.

https://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-releases/gkn-powder-metallurgy-to-establish-new-business-unit-gkn-hydrogen-845459526.html

dubhthach · 28-10-2021 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082199#Comment_118082199

Most of the talk of 'Green Hydrogen' in Ireland is tied to the offshore Wind pipeline. There is something like 5GW of planned offshore wind in the pipeline to be developed by 2030. With talk of even more, for example the recently announced 'Inis Offshore Wind' announced it wants to develop 1GW of offshore wind by 2030 (two sites in Irish sea) but could potentially realise up to 4GW in total over 5 sites -- 2 off West Coast and one in Celtic sea in addition to Irish sea projects.

So the whole Green Hydrogen/Green Ammonia pipeline is based on idea that we will have excess offshore wind that we can't export over interconnectors. This all ties in with offshore wind having higher availability than onshore.

28-10-2021 3:16pm

This cropped up on my youtube feed today. Its a very good vid on the "new and amazing" types of wind turbines that pop up on a regular basis. Most have been around for decades and are essentially unviable but they have flashy marketing and buzz and thats about all

https://youtu.be/6vb18oXPli4

Capt'n Midnight · 28-10-2021 3:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118079310#Comment_118079310

There are plenty of plans for offshore wind on the sand banks off the east coast alone. Which is where the demand and interconnectors are. https://www.npws.ie/marine/marine-habitats/sandbanks

The greatest resource of sandbanks is found in the Irish Sea. These banks are from north to south: Bennet, Burford, Kish, Frazer, Bray, Codling, India, Arklow, Seven Fathom Bank, Glassgorman, Rusk, Blackwater/Moneyweights, Lucifer, Long and Holdens Banks. To date only 2 sandbanks, the Ballybunion and Turbot/Kilstiffin Banks, have been identified along the western seaboard at the mouth of the Lower River Shannon cSAC between Counties Kerry and Clare. No sandbanks are found on the southern coast of Ireland. A small bank also occurs on the north coast of Donegal called Hempton’s Turbot Bank.

Dundalk - https://www.orielwindfarm.ie/project-information-1 320MW

Then there's 500MW for Clogherhead windfarm

And the North Irish Sea Array https://afloat.ie/resources/news-update/item/52111-marine-notice-benthic-survey-campaign-for-north-irish-sea-array

There's the Dublin Array https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/joint-venture-to-build-1-5bn-wind-farm-off-dublin-coast-1.4051797

And the Sea Stacks 800MW 12Km from the coast , to the east of the Bray Bank https://seastacksoffshorewind.ie/contact-us.html#Map

Codling Wind Park - 1.5GW between Greystones and Wicklow

And there's been a few turbines on the Arklow Bank for ages now.

Up to 70GW of wind off the west coast would need support infrastructure.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-40331042.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

cnocbui · 28-10-2021 3:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118082009#Comment_118082009

Sure could. All that's needed is a very large sum of money; however, perhaps a country with a higher debt per capita than Greece should concentrate more on fiscal responsibility than becoming electron moguls.

cnocbui · 28-10-2021 3:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118081961#Comment_118081961

The gulf stream has been slowing for thousands of years and I think will stop very soon. I'm sure it's just incredible coincidence that the timing of past glaciation events suggest the next one is likely overdue and that global average temperature and CO2 levels rise very rapidly just before glaciation periods set in.

All that's needed to seal the deal are for large Antarctic icebergs to start drifting further north than usual, which I suspect happens when the ice sheets break up.

bk · 28-10-2021 6:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085958#Comment_118085958

LOL and you want us to spend 25 Billion for a single 1,600 MW EPR Nuclear reactor !!

Of course we wouldn't invest in all that sort of energy generation unless it was actually a net benefit to our economy. Generally speaking large energy users like these need to pay for the building of the extra capacity they use. So it wouldn't cost us anything and it wouldn't add to our national debt, etc.

cnocbui · 28-10-2021 7:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118086677#Comment_118086677

No, the only advocacy I have made is for a 450 mw SMR for £2.2 b.

embraer170 · 28-10-2021 8:21pm

One thing I have often wondered is how hydrogen production is impacted be highly intermittent renewables (wind for example).

Is it a production process that can be easily started and stopped according to electricity supply, once you disregard the high cost of infrastructure lying idle?

Markcheese · 28-10-2021 8:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087195#Comment_118087195

Buffer the system with a fecking huge battery ..

Markcheese · 28-10-2021 8:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087011#Comment_118087011

Where are they used ? Or just where are they ?

cnocbui · 28-10-2021 9:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087236#Comment_118087236

In the UK nuclear sub fleet. Am I allowed to ask where the proven and currently functioning grid scale wind/hydrogen storage systems are?

I'd be quick with to order to RR with a fixed price contract. I'd imagine the first customer to place an order will get a great deal from RR.

Markcheese · 28-10-2021 9:20pm

You can ask away , and I'd be interested in the answer - personally I think banking on green hydrogen as a cheap power storage source is bonkers ...about as bonkers as (1) banking on an unproven,uncosted - and as yet unavailable civilian version of military tech ..

(2) expecting that the general population will accept them being scattered across the country... ( No matter how safe they claim to be )

Capt'n Midnight · 29-10-2021 12:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087011#Comment_118087011

Come back to us when they've installed one for that price. Actually wait a wee bit till the early 2030's as they've said it'll be £1.8Bn after the first five have been built.

The same super optimism says 7 years to build the first one. After they get £2Bn development aid. And based on getting £60/MWh for baseload power and contracts for 16 units. So that £2.2Bn becomes £32.8Bn (for 7.2GW). If there was any chance this would fill in for the cancelled nuclear power plant projects the UK would bite their hand off.

They've been pimping this stuff since 2015 and no one has signed up. Not even the UK where jobs and profits will be. Not even Boris is suggesting these are a goer.

Edit - they are now 470MW

dubhthach · 29-10-2021 8:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087231#Comment_118087231

There's already an example of this where a Wind farm in Korea has a Battery between it and the electrolyzers.

https://www.basf.com/ie/en/who-we-are/sustainability/whats-new/sustainability-news/2020/basf-gphilos-cooperation-power-to-gas-business.html

https://www.energy-storage.news/basf-to-supply-sodium-sulfur-batteries-for-green-hydrogen-production-systems/

bk · 29-10-2021 11:59am

"In the UK nuclear sub fleet."

Errr.. No. The Nuclear reactors built by R&R for the UK Nuclear subs use highly enriched Uranium, in the 93 to 97% range.

Such reactor designs would never be allowed to be used in any Western civilian reactors, due to concerns over the proliferation of weapons grade uranium!

The proposed Rolls Royce civilian SMR's have nothing in common with their military SMR reactors. They are more like scaled down versions of the common civilian PWR's, they will use standard UO2 fuel enriched at less then 5%.

The two are radically different designs.

BTW I wouldn't go equating these RR SMR's with their military reactors, the general public tends to be nervous enough about Nuclear power without drawing military grade reactors into it.

"No, the only advocacy I have made is for a 450 mw SMR for £2.2 b."

Except they don't exist. They aren't being built and not even one has been ordered.

I genuinely hope I'm wrong, but I feel I'm once bitten, twice shy.

I remember 15 years ago first hearing about the EPR reactors and being very excited about them. Finally we are building new Nuclear reactors in Europe and they will cost just 4 Bn. Well we all know how that worked out. 4bn became 25bn!!

And that was for a reactor design that was actually started building then and had firm orders, not a design that was 10 years off in the future, with zero orders. Could £2.2Bn similarly become £13Bn for 470MW when all is said and done?

Look I hope I'm wrong, I hope RR manage it. But I'm not putting much hope in it. In 10 years we should examine it again. Has RR actually built any by then, are they operating, how much they really cost?

I think we are very much in a wait and see with this tech. And yes, in fairness, the same is true with hydrogen, flow batteries, iron - air batteries, etc. 9 years from now, once we have meet our 70% renewables goal, we will have to look at all of these technologies, see how they have developed over the next 9 years and then choose how to proceed to de-carbonise the remaining 30%.

gjim · 29-10-2021 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087011#Comment_118087011

You've made your distaste for wind (743 GW capacity installed globally), solar (760 GW installed capacity) and li-ion batteries (35 GW) clear.

The components for all these are produced by mass manufacturing which services a huge and growing global market and is supported by mature (boring) engineering principles to install and deploy. And all continue to follow a steep path of falling prices.

Your alternative strategy to decarbonise energy relies on gullibly swallowing the contents of a press release from a company touting for government funding - for a technology that has NEVER been used by anybody in the world for supplying energy to the grid. A technology that doesn't even exist and won't be available for years if it ever appears (my guess is it never will - the economics just don't stack up) and that nobody else is planning on using? Sorry but this sounds like a joke strategy invented just to be contrarian on the internet.

Because the world is driven by realities instead of contrarian fantasies, Ireland and the rest of the world will crack on with deploying ever increasing amounts of on-shore and off-shore wind, solar PV capacity, li-ion battery storage and inter-connectors.

Apogee · 29-10-2021 5:45pm

Eirgrid has confirmed that three power stations have been closed in recent days due to technical problems.

This contributed to an amber alert yesterday, which lasted from 4pm to 9pm.

An amber alert indicates that electricity supplies are stretched.

The generating stations subject to "forced outages" were Tarbert in Kerry, which accounts for 530 megawatts, Great Island in Wexford with a capacity of 460 megawatts, and Moneypoint 2 in Clare, which has a capacity of 285 megawatts.

Aghada in Cork, with a capacity of 425 megawatts, has been operating at a reduced capacity since yesterday.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2021/1029/1256736-power-stations/

gjim · 30-10-2021 3:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091157#Comment_118091157

Damned renewables - you just can't depend on them for reliable supply. Oh...

Energy infrastructure

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