Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

It's definitely not cool - deliberately mistranslating and misrepresenting what someone said in another language in order just to stir things up is not a good look. It seems solely designed to enrage the Brexit followers even further.

Cameron was eurosceptic but became an unenthusiastic rational remainer when he was confronted with the reality of leaving the EU.

It's a scary read looking back on it. Reminds me a lot of the Celtic Tiger where some people were making very good point which now look like they could read the future they are so accurate but at the time were told to "shut up or F off" by many

That would be an interesting tactic, it would draw the UK back in tiwafs some form of customs union with the EU, possibly might persuade some regretful brexiteer voters to vote for independence in order to get the UK back in ?

Or am I talking gibberish

Yeah something like that. It would give all non-UKIP types, across the political spectrum, an excuse to align more with the EU and it could be framed as pro-British rather than pro-EU.

Yes, Cameron didn't wish the UK to leave the EU (which was still an out-there position at the time I believe). However I don't think you could hold positive views of the EU, and also get to be the leader of the Tories. Not possible. That was why the Conservatives left the centre right EU parliament grouping. They didn't feel comfortable in a group where most of the parties in it (like our own FG) would be very EU-supporting and position on the EU was important enough for them to prefer to align with authoritarian parties.

I suppose it does make Boris Johnson & his govt. look less like political extremists + obscures how much politcs of the UK has changed with Brexit to retrospectively claim Cameron was EU-friendly!

Johnson apparently once said that Cameron was far more Eurosceptic than anyone realised. He basically only wanted to remain in the EU for the trade aspect, but hated most other elements of the union. Didn't Sir Ivan Rogers say that he (Cameron) only wanted to be a partial member of the EU....one that was only in the outer rings and not part of the central core like France and Germany.

It's no coincidence that Brexit happened on his watch. He was the most Europhobic PM of the last 50 years.

Leaving the EU for closer alignment with the US is one I heard here from time to time "become the 51st state"

All from people who would be purely money driven

Yeah, lots of anger here at the time about the way the EU, and in particular German were treating us.

Well known political party which is currently the most popular in the polls very vocal about how evil the EU were,and fawing over Greece and their government at the time.

I think the 'stick' might be the way they handled Brexit and there are more than 'that party' beating them, not least some of their own, who have signaled their intention to give their vote elsewhere.

It's Brexit that has caused the retreat. Essentially the likes of Le Pen and Salvio have had their bluffs called

Laura Kuensbergs “interview” with Boris in the Colosseum in Rome yesterday was stomach churning stuff even by her standards. Boris moaning about the French supposedly breaking an agreement was something else, the lack of self awareness is breathtaking.

It's not just down to the strength of the "special relationship".

The EU has been working hard for most of this year to try and resolve this dispute. Although a long way behind China, which produces more than half the world's steel, the EU is the second largest steel producer in the world - larger not only than the US, but than the whole of the NAFTA steel industry. So tariffs on steel were a problem for the EU in a way that, frankly, they aren't for the UK, which nowadays has a pretty tiny steel industry - it's less than 5% of the size of the EU's. So the UK probably didn't put the same effort into resolving this; it wasn't such a high priority for them. It's not that they couldn't get the US to deal with them on this problem, so much as that they didn't try. Their hope may be that they can ride on the EU's coattails; now that the UK has ended the tariffs on EU steel, getting it to agree to end the (identical) tariffs on UK steel should be a shoe-in. We'll see.

It's also possible - more than possible, if we're honest - that the US didn't attach the same priority to addressing the issue with the UK as it did to addressing the issue with the EU. From the US's point of view, the EU is much the larger and more significant trading partner, and the costs to the US of a lingering trade disagreement with the EU vastly outweigh those of a trade disagreement with the UK. Plus, the Biden administration has made it clear in various ways that they consider the UK right now to be a negotiating counterparty of doubtful reliability, given all its arsing around over the Northern Ireland Protocol. So, for both of these reasons, they'd have no great incentive to prioritise talks with the UK about resolving the steel tariff dispute.

The French row shows the ultimate cost of Brexit. Both sides have some area to complain, but it is an immaterial matter and should easily be solved by a few quick phonecalls. Unfortunately, the French no longer see the UK as trustworthy, and have lost patience and what should have been an almost unnoticed issue has now taken on national importance and neither side wants to be seen to give in.

You can talk trade deals and whatever for ever, but the amount of time and effort having to be wasted on such a trivial issue is a complete waste and even Johnson is being constantly asked about it when he would much prefer to pretend he was leading the global fight against Climate Change.

And stuff like this is going to keep happening. One of the big positives of the EU was that seemingly important national issues could be talked about between partners and compromise could be reached as other issues would be taken into account. Some times you get more than you wanted, sometimes less, but a longer term plan was always in play.

But the UK has backed itself into a corner in that ever issue is not a matter of sovereignty and national pride.

But the sheer hypocrisy of the UK in this issue is truly staggering. Only last year they were claiming the media was calling for the Gun boats to be sent in, MPS have called for Gunboats to be sent o protect Gibraltar and they had no issue with breaking both trade agreements and also international law.