Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Black History Month Ireland, why?

Options
1911131415

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,231 ✭✭✭TomSweeney


    Fantastic from Mr. Freeman, I can imagine the defenders of this woke nonsense getting angry - how dare Mr. Freeman have his own opinions!!!

    He must be suffering from internalized racism ....



  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]



    Your post is full of assumptions, simplistic either/or thinking, and weird misattributions. 'Posts' is accurate, strictly speaking; it's also a real stretch, if you mean to imply that I contribute regularly on race or so-called "culture war" topics. I rarely do, because these highly charged topics attract highly charged people. Plus, binary discourses based on simplistic categories tend to have predictable outcomes. I do have a few minutes for the exceptionally low hanging fruit however :)

    How do you believe race is 'practically meaningless' while also seeing racism existing?

    Racism exists because stupid and evil people insist on thinking about people using racial, generalized terms instead of treating people as individuals. Was it this thread where someone described a kid being spat on outside school? I can't even imagine the level of intellectual degeneracy it takes to do something like that. It occurs because of vulgar modes of thinking and you don't have to be any sort of intellectual, real or barstool, to be aware of this.

    Supporting those who have experienced racism

    Who said people who have experienced racism shouldn't be supported? I think you're addressing stuff to me that would be better addressed to others, TBH.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,231 ✭✭✭TomSweeney


    edit wrong forum, can't delete..



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Racism is always going to exist as long as the differences in race remain important. Any movement that seeks to distinguish people as being different (or needing support) because of their race (as opposed to individual circumstances) is guaranteeing that race remains an important distinction, and therefore is guaranteeing that racism continues. If anything, they're encouraging racism to grow, because as a result of their favortism, other groups will be diminished... because equality is not the goal here. If it was, then, race wouldn't be the focus.

    The problem with most modern race movements is that they favor "reverse discrimination", under the guise of protecting the disadvantaged racial group, except that simply justifies the logic of many racist groups, because to elevate one group over another (under the aim of protecting them), you have to make another racial group disadvantaged based on race.

    When you pick a job, saying that only Black people can apply, then you're discriminating against those who are not Black. It's an unfair advantage, and guarantees that others (especially those who were excluded but wanted that job) will judge Black people based on their skin colour not on the skills or ability that they bring to the position.

    Those involved in anti-racism initiatives generally have little interest in diminishing racism, otherwise they wouldn't be advocating these kinds of measures. It would make far more sense to remove race entirely as a consideration, basing the problems of their lives on their economic status, education, etc, rather than on their race... because helping those from poor backgrounds or those with a lack of education, is accepted enough that few people would ever have a problem with it. In the end, it removes race as a distinguishing factor, and the individual circumstances of their place in society, becomes the most relevant... which is a far better state of affairs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    I'd imagine it's that people not willing to change are getting tired of being harangued for being either racist or willfully ignorant that it's alive and well and minorities are still facing it daily. Same with not wanting the gay community to have Pride.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭donaghs


    The poster before the one you responded to was simply making the point that emphasising and even sometimes creating racial identities (even with “good intentions” like the so-called “anti-racism”) actually makes racism worse. It emphasises the differences between people, encourages them into group identities. History shows us people don’t need any more encouragement to be more tribal and factional - it doesn’t end well.

    racism is always wrong. And to do our best to rid the world of it, we should treat other people as fellow human beings, first.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    I was answering the poster I quoted.

    There certainly is a fatigue even though its an ongoing issue. Its like sexual assault and racism are so 2019.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Simple question. You said that minorities are facing racism daily. Do you believe that accusing the majority of racism towards minorities decreases racism?

    Not picking out individual cases of actual racism and dealing with those. Rather the accusations by anti-racism groups who have called Irish people, in general, racist.. or that White people are racist...

    I have lived as a minority race in a variety of countries, and I'm aware of what it's like to be on the receiving end of racism. I also know that it really comes down to individuals. Even in China, where there is an approved culture towards treating "foreigners" a certain way, it really does come down to individuals rather than an entire people.

    And yet, when we look at these anti-racist groups, the accusations don't tend to relate to individuals, except where those individual circumstances are used as basis for blaming the whole.

    Being racist in 2021 is not the same as being racist in 1990. The definition has been expanded far beyond it's traditional meaning..



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    No. I think pointing out that its a daily problem for some sections is a good thing. However awkward or annoying it might be.

    Individual cases are often symptoms of a systemic problem. If a section of society are having a tough time as a collecwe should be made aware and adjust accordingly.

    Yes. While dragging someone behind your truck is not the same as getting bored of the subject or having issues with certain groups, its all issues with racism.

    It didn't take long for people to turn on BLM and #metoo because its more comfortable to blame the people pointing out societies flaws than having to deal.

    That young man who shot protesters dead is on trial. The judge said the prosecution can't call those killed 'victims' but can only refer to them as 'looters' or 'rioters'. Thats a systemic problem IMO.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭vriesmays


    Why are there no black people in Irish property adverts / brochures but they're everywhere in other adverts here.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Same reason no smiley irish on the equivalent foreign advert. Not a traget market for the particular product



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    Why aren’t black people the target audience of property developers? Don’t they need somewhere to live too?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    Yes. It seems like the Irish media has taken up the diversity memo with gusto in the last few years. If you were to assume that media depictions accurately reflect demographics, black people must surely be 20% of the Irish population and every second couple is interracial. Of course, the reality is that blacks are ~1.5% of residents and mixed race marriages are negligible.

    Why do you think black people are in absentia when it comes to property-related advertising?



  • Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yes they do too but its about maximising profit. Spend the same on 1 advert targetting 50 000 vs 3 million potential customers. Its all to do with maximises profit not rascism



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No. I think pointing out that its a daily problem for some sections is a good thing. However awkward or annoying it might be.

    Which is not what I asked. I didn't even remotely refer to such a thing in my post.

    And the simple fact is that in any populated area, some people are going to experience racism, since White people can be racist towards other white people, just as Black people can be racist towards other Black people. It's not an issue for "some" people, unless you only want to make it about some people, rather than dealing with the overall behavior/attitude itself. And by doing so, you're encouraging racism to continue, because you seek to elevate one group over another.

    Individual cases are often symptoms of a systemic problem. If a section of society are having a tough time as a collecwe should be made aware and adjust accordingly.

    Where's the relevance to what I said? No.. seriously.

    And considering we're talking about Ireland, there's no systemic problem... although I'd prefer that you address my previous points rather than running off talking about possible systemic issues.

    Yes. While dragging someone behind your truck is not the same as getting bored of the subject or having issues with certain groups, its all issues with racism.

    Huh? That makes absolutely no sense at all.

    It didn't take long for people to turn on BLM and #metoo because its more comfortable to blame the people pointing out societies flaws than having to deal.

    Metoo was criticised because it was based along anonymous claims that were never proven. It was a bonfire for a mob movement, where people could make vague claims about others without ever being investigated themselves, and thus, holding the power to ruin others lives without any risk to themselves for lying or exaggerating. There was also no standard to the level of claims so, a guy asking a girl out could be judged the same as some who sexually assaulted. That did the Metoo movement no favors... neither did the expectation of an automatic Ibelieveher (regardless of circumstances). The metoo movement turned into a bitter witchhunt, and the people involved in it, corrupted the value of it to others.

    BLM was always political, and full of contradictions... from the approval of racism directed towards others, to the self-imposed segregation in the autonomous zones (Yeah, I get that we're supposed to forget any of that happened).

    You see, your own reference to BLM and Meoo show the aspect of blaming others rather than dealing with the flaws within society, as it relates to them. But I guess doing so would be "victim blaming". Much easier/more convenient for arguments to pass all responsibility elsewhere.

    That young man who shot protesters dead is on trial. The judge said the prosecution can't call those killed 'victims' but can only refer to them as 'looters' or 'rioters'. Thats a systemic problem IMO.

    No, it's a problem with the influence of propaganda being used and the power of perception. That the Judge needs to be so careful with terminology and categories to avoid encouraging a particular reaction from others.

    The funny thing is that most of your examples above backfire against the points you want to make.

    Not one thing in that post dealt with my previous post. You quoted me and then went off on a different direction entirely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    Makes sense. I guess all the property development industry cares about is maximizing profit. They’re not concerned with representing every niche demographic. On the other hand, our national broadcaster and ‘paper of record’ seem to believe that social conditioning is within their remit..



  • Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It works all ways. You won t see many adds in China targetting Koreans or Japanese or vice versa. It also the fact that most irish or english, dont pay attention to the color of the actor advertising the product. It will not affect sales, but the same add with the roles/races reversed may go down like a lead balloon in other countries



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    I can say whatever I like. I don't have to follow your after post crib notes. I explained my point based on your queries and comments.

    Have a nice day.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Grand. Although, I would point out that if you expect others to take your posts seriously, you might extend the same courtesy to others.

    But it's fine. It's merely confirmation of what suspected previously.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,891 ✭✭✭✭Rothko


    Posts like that prove that they can't back up what they said.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 13,838 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Some progressive, self described socialist activists, were on holiday in America, came back and after the 3rd bottle of Beaujolais decided it would be "empathic" and an act of "solidarity".



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Listening to the first installment, its helpful that they clarify that in RTEs version of this:"October is Black History month", "We celebrate black history", "it originated in USA", celebrates achievements and culture of "people of African diaspora."

    But in the last installment I see they perpetuate some of the myths about Mary Seacole: Black History Month: Mary Seacole, a pioneering nurse (rte.ie)

    While Mary was a remarkeable entrepreneur, and traveller, who also clearly showed a caring side to people who stayed in her hotels and lodgings, its a stretch to call her a Nurse , or someone who advanced the profession of nursing/medicine etc.


    Black History and the Myth of Mary Seacole - Social Science Space

    Mary Seacole was kind and generous, but was no ‘pioneer nurse’ | Nursing | The Guardian



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Well there were up to 20 involved in the defense of the GPO according to a some sources. They volunteered to stay and help. There was at least one black British soldier on the other side too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 975 ✭✭✭Parachutes




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sounds like revisionist rubbish to me. If there were 20 Black people living in the whole of Ireland at that time, I'd genuinely be surprised, never mind that they were willing to die for a cause not their own. How come we haven't seen or heard any mention of these black martyrs in our history books?

    The Black British soldier.. sure, that makes some sense. But the other? Yup. Let's see some sources.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    I remember reading it in a book titled '50 things you didn't know about 1916' by Mick O'Farrell. They were, as far as I remember a group of foreign students, remember we were at the centre of the colonial Britsih empire. The Black soldier is here

    https://jeffreygreen.co.uk/180-a-black-soldier-in-dublin-1916/

    Post edited by saabsaab on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Which doesn't counter what I said.

    I didn't have any kind of issue with there being British soldiers being Black. I suspect it was very rare for them to be stationed in Europe, considering the superiority complex many English had at that time, but that's a secondary point.

    The claim was that there were many (as many as 20) Black people (I assume men) involved in the defense of the GPO, hence the request for a source, which the above isn't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Hamachi


    Thank you for continuing to push for this source. It’s an extraordinary claim to make that 20 black ‘patriots’ were involved at the GPO. I’ll be pretty incredulous if a legitimate source is produced.

    I’m late 30s and can quite clearly remember the late 1980s and early 1990s. Frankly, I would venture that there were less than several hundred black people in the entire country as recently as 1995. Even when I moved to Dublin for university in 2000, black people were relatively thin on the ground. Outside the city center, it was possible to go weeks without meeting a black person in suburban areas.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,864 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Maybe one rebel had a black great-grandfather, and applying the standard inflation over time that has resulted in millions of grandads apparently having been in the GPO in 1916 this has grown to a purported 20 black men? Much like the 100s of thousands who apparently attended the Munster-All Blacks game in 1978.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Even then, I don't quite get the logic. At that time in our history, Irish people left Ireland and didn't return. Unless they were part of the British establishment, so, I suppose it's possible that some Irish lad headed off to Africa, and hooked up with a native, bringing back their mixed race children... but even that is an extreme stretch considering the attitude towards race and culture of the time. I'm sure there were mixed race children, but I suspect they were left behind in Africa, rather than facing the stigma that would have existed at that time.

    In any case, though, the claim is regarding a number of Black men in Ireland (not mixed race) who apparently were present at the time of the rising.. which doesn't make sense, considering that Ireland was an agricultural province, for the British, and not somewhere they'd be sending people from Africa to. The same with the British families who had properties or businesses in Ireland, there wouldn't have been the cultural climate for such a thing. Such kind of behavior would have seen most families ostracized for their contempt of the natural order.

    Which leaves these Black people coming to Ireland on their own... and the simple question would be why? (and how?). When there is Britain or France nearby providing a much larger population to be lost among, and less risk of facing the prejudice that would have been common at the time in the countryside. Even Dublin was what we'd consider a big town in those times.. so...

    I dunno.. it makes little logical sense considering what we know of that period.



Advertisement