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Ireland badly needs a new centre-right party - Here's my proposal

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    I never said I wanted to hire anyone as cheap labour.

    I said the way to make building costs cheaper (cheaper doesn't mean cheap) is to increase supply of labour and materials.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,075 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Building costs are cheap enough - the problem is land prices and profit margins.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Nah, you did.

    The best way to 'solve' the problem is to drive down wages in the building industry by opening our borders to tradesmen 

    "Driving down wages" == hiring cheap labour.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Huh? Driving down wages means exactly what it says.

    It is a leap to go from that to me personally wanting to hire workers in dire conditions.

    It is basic supply and demand. More supply means demand is satisfied and upward pressure on wages lessens. Over supply and downward pressure is exerted on salaries.

    You are trying to read things into what I wrote that aren't there. I was just expressing a very basic economic concept. I never even hinted that it is an outcome I would be in favour of.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Yes, driving down wages means exactly what it says. You do it by hiring people on lower wages than the agreed norms.

    You do know the construction sector is still highly unionised, and quite well regulated? Here's an article from as recently as last Tuesday with what will be the rates from next February. So instead of a craftsperson earning €20.52 an hour, you want to somehow flood the market with... /checks notes... skilled craftspeople from outside the EU... who will be willing to work for what, less than an apprentice gets, and will still somehow be able to rent somewhere and feed themselves? And won't disappear off into the black economy once they have their visa?



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    You're still arguing with something that wasn't said but to reference your point above is your claim that there are no craftsmen earning more than €20.52 an hour? Or are you just highlighting the minimum union rates?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Yep, they're the minimum rates.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    So you would conceed that salaries can be driven down towards the minimum rates rather than €3 per hour so construction becomes cheaper and no one gets exploited?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Labour wont go down in cost. Here is an actual partial solution, the government reduce building taxes, a staggering amount of the cost goes to them...



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Rather, what I meant to say is. No chance government will go down that route...

    Reduce the tax take on new build. Ban new data centres and perhaps hotels in Dublin, that would free up a lot of capacity for the only thing are are massively short on now... residential...



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Just leaving you with the problem of persuading several thousand Turkish (or wherever) workers to move to Ireland for €800/week (before tax), when their rent, in Dublin anyway, will be €1,600/month, minimum. And of course there won't be any trouble with Irish construction workers, or the far-right stirring up "They're coming over here taking our jobs!" bollocks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,510 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    The way to reduce building costs is not to reduce the wage rates.

    The solutions are:

    more supply of all builders (this will reduce wage pressures, but I don't imply lower wage rates)

    massive cuts in the cost of development sites

    large cuts in the costs of finance

    de-risk house building, so profit margins can fall



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    We already have a Mica scandal now the government follywombles want to get exploited labour to build stuff, what could possibly go wrong,



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    more supply of all builders (this will reduce wage pressures, but I don't imply lower wage rates)

    How does that work, exactly? Immigration? Where will they all live?

    massive cuts in the cost of development sites

    So state intervention in property rights? This does not seem to be a centre-right position...

    How about, instead, massive increases in land bank and derelict site taxes, so speculators don't sit on vacant sites for a few years just to sell them on to another speculator who'll do the same, rather than build on the site?

    large cuts in the costs of finance

    😏 Dude. Seriously? Finance has never been so cheap. How can you not know this?! The banks will jump at the chance to lend to any developer. Can't really take you seriously after

    de-risk house building, so profit margins can fal

    Not sure what "risk" you're talking about, unless it's FOMO on even higher profits. But is it not a central tenet of capitalism that the rewards are justified because of the risk of the investment?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,510 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    We need to convince more people here to take up a trade. Having the highest rates of college attendance is great, but not so great when you can't get a plumber or electrician.

    We also need to encourage the Irish trades that emigrated after 2009 crash to return. (Yes, housing them is an issues, yes)


    I accept that all of my suggestions might not fit neatly into what other people define as "centre-right".

    Yes, we need to radically cut the cost of development land. I am open to how that could be done, and you suggest SVT / hoarding taxes, etc., I agree. For example, the former Hickey's warehouse site on Parkgate street, Dublin sold for 30m, meaning any houses built there have to be expensive. I suggest that site should be 3m. Yes, I agree that this might need a constitutional referendum, but the housing crisis is so serious, that radical measures are required.

    (if that sounds like a SF policy, I see what you mean, things are so bad in housing now, that centre-right politicians must accept that the market can't or won't solve the problem)


    Turning to finance, yes, the ECB rate is low at 0%. But here is what I hear directly from a financial controller of a property developer:

    they can't borrow at all from banks for sites/land without planning

    with planning, banks will lend 60% (senior debt) at 5% or 6%, way too high

    they put up 20% equity themselves

    the remaining 20% is borrowed from mezzanine financers, often foreign lenders, at rates over 10%!!!

    This results in very high finance costs of 16,716 per house in the GDA in 2020



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    Our economy depends on immigrants for retail, cafes, hotel workers, one example in the UK they need 100k drivers , they are giving visas for truck drivers to come to the UK

    Young people are moving to the left the present housing system leaves even well paid workers struggling to pay rent or buy a house. I think a right wing party would not get many people voting for it our health system depends to a large part on doctors from abroad

    Sinn fein is a socialist party its rising in the polls



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    Id say they are a populist party rather than a socialist one



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,448 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    I say SF are calling for 7 billion a year to be spent on social housing.


    Whos gunna pay for it?


    The already squeezed middle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    I think the government plan calls for 20k housing units to be built every year whether this happens is hard to say. 35 per cost rise in housing materials, the supply chain crisis will make it more difficult.

    I always thought Fianna Fáil were the Conservative and fine Gael were Liberal slightly left wing party

    Ireland was one of the first country's to bring in gay marriage most young people are Liberal or slightly left wing



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    I agree. The same people already paying for the obscenely wasteful system...



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    How much are the current cuckoo leases costing?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    There clearing forestry at a high rate up here, how long it takes between felling and market?, a lot of the other stuff is already easing,



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,448 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    No idea.


    But I prefer it to spending 7 billion a year handing out free houses.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Not free,and rent will be deducted at source,money returning to the state not some tax haven



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    Social housing rents are deducted at source now?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,448 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Eh.


    That's not what happens.


    DCC are owed 40 million in social housing rent arrears.


    Let us know when you come back down to planet earth.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    FF were traditionally more conservative socially than FG but were also more left wing economically , under Garret Fitz , FG were very liberal socially and to the left economically



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