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Ireland badly needs a new centre-right party - Here's my proposal

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    Really I haven't heard of this before at all.

    A very sensible proposal



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    FG? They're still a little bit liberal socially, but have gone full neo-liberal economically over the last couple of decades. Privatise, cut back, subsidise big business, outsource services. Economically, though, there's very little between FF and FG at all. Do they have any major policy differences?



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,572 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    I think it's kind of a futile, circular debate trying to establish whether FF and FG should be categorised as left, right or center because people will always have different criteria for measuring thar. IMO it's more constructive to focus on specific policies and whether any of the current parties are promoting them or are likely to in the future. I think any reasonable person would have to acknowledge there is no way in hell any mainstream party is going to

    • cap and reduce welfare budget over time.
    • get rid of the nonsense that is carbon tax.

    So therefore there is clearly a gap in the market for what OP is looking for, regardless of whether you consider that 'hard right' or 'far right' or whatever.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    First of all welfare is the way it is in this country because we have always had trouble creating sustainable work over long periods for our citizens and any party that would be in favour of severely cutting welfare would really only appeal to the nasty minded bitter cunts on this island of which, I'm sorry to say, there are a number. The fact of the matter is, however, is that we need a decent functioning welfare system because our job creation has always been pants.

    So even our centre right conservative party, Fine Gael, won't be in favour of touching that too hard cos they know it would mean disaster at the polls for them. The nasty minded bitter cunts may wank themselves to sleep at night over such a thing, but the reality is that our political parties will be loath to do anything too radical in that regard as it would be detrimental to their power aspirations.

    The nonsense that is carbon tax is something that most political parties would be in favour of, because it brings in revenue. There may be pretence about being against it from certain quarters but its largely a charade. A carbon tax is annoying, but it's going to come in in some form or another no matter who is at the wheel.

    We have no real "far left" or "far right" entities in this country. Certainly not ones that will ever make an impact and the destruction of the National Party at the election time is proof of that. Such silly terms are only used when clowns want to try and score points but it always just sounds ridiculous. What also sounds ridiculous is someone calling FG a "left wing" party because they don't extol the same extremist views that that person may hold.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Miscellaneous purposes bill 2014 section 53 allows for deduction at source and collection of arrears, government have failed to implement existing legislation.

    https://councilmeetings.dublincity.ie/documents/s29548/3ii.Report%20from%20Rental%20Model%20Review%20Working%20Group.pdf



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    We are stuck with carbon tax but it needs to be ring-fenced for flood defences and other weather related stuff, any use for any other purpose should result in serious jail time for the politicians and public servants who misuse the money,



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    I would say a lot of money invested into the HSE is a misuse of money as it is just wasted but wouldn't be naive enough to think that anyone will ever do prison time for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    What's happening at the moment is the hse is paying high rents to landlords to house homeless people, I read this is much more expensive than say building 5000 units a year for social housing, but the government has spending limits set by the EU, it cannot just borrow unlimited billions to build social housing eg it makes no sense for the hse to be renting a house for 10 years i.m not an economist so I don't know if there's an solution to this problem this is a long term problem after the 90s dublin City Council sold off 90 per cent of its housing units to tenants who could buy them at a bargain price



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,478 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Did the Op really call for segregation of social housing and people who work? You want ghettos? That's how you get ghettos. And we all know how well that turns out. Once you start gathering people you don't like in ghettos you're stuck trying to find something to do with them, a way of liquidating the ghettos to borrow a term.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 Sibyl_savant


    Cap children's allowance ... in a time where people are having fewer and fewer children and we're getting ready to face a demographic crisis.

    Proof again that what's considered "Right" by most people in Ireland is actually short term selfish neoliberalism.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 20 Sibyl_savant


    No real far left? We have actual self described Trotskyists in the Dail. Is that not "far left" enough for you? The far left got about 3% of the vote and hold 6 seats. Meanwhile they and the rest of the establishment occasionally hyperventilate about the non-existent "far-right". Only in Ireland, guys, only in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Average rent creeping towards €2k/month in Dublin. €24k/year, €240k over ten years. Rent going to private sector investment funds. FFG councillors proposing giveaways of public land to developers to build social housing... It makes zero economic sense for councils to avoid building social housing, yet that's where we are. The tribunals in 20 to 30 years time will be something else.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    It makes a lot of sense that councils do not build as they are unable to do it without massive overspends for what they get. Also the ongoing maintenance of these properties costs huge amounts of money and loads of extra staff to do the work.

    Average homes in undesired parts of the city/country will cost well in excess of market prices.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Crosby Chubby Dachshund




  • Registered Users Posts: 16,572 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    I'm not debating the rights and wrongs of these policies, I'm saying OP is correct in asserting that there is no chance of any of the current parties adopting them, and you are essentially agreeing. What good is this to him?

    The nasty minded bitter cunts may wank themselves to sleep at night over such a thing, but the reality is that our political parties will be loath to do anything too radical in that regard

    As I said it doesn't matter where you place FG and FF on some abstract left-right scale. The relevant point for this thread is they are well to the left of what he is looking for.

    Of course it's a whole other question whether a sufficient number of Irish people share his views to make such a party a success, were it to emerge...



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH




  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    And like the tribunals of yesteryear they'll make bugger all difference.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Agreed. Sadly it will fall upon the deaf ears of the eternal bootlicks who are only interested in punching down on their "lessers".



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    I'm not debating the rights and wrongs of these policies, I'm saying OP is correct in asserting that there is no chance of any of the current parties adopting them

    And I'm saying that that's a good thing. That there's no real space for these types of odious political entities is one the things about Ireland that we can be genuinely proud of.

    What good is this to him?

    Frankly, I couldn't care less.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid



    Is the system perfect? Jesus, no. There is always room for improvement, sometimes room for massive improvement. Right now, though, the prices being quoted for social and affordable homes that it's proposed we (the taxpayer) acquire by gifting public land to developers then renting back the houses they build, are crazy. The very concept of that is crazy!

    At one point, though, we were able to build social housing for reasonable prices. No reason we can't return to that. It's harder, though, when council officials greet such proposals with a sharp intake of breath and a "Oh, I dunno about that, we used to have project managers and quantity surveyors and architects, but they all died of consumption in the 1970s!"

    Maintenance is absolutely an issue. The practice of restoring a council house to a basic 'standard fit-out' (i.e., literally ripping out tenant-installed improvements and replacing them with an old spec) when it becomes vacant is blatantly self-defeating, and should obviously be scrapped in favour of a certification system. That's just council regulations, though, and they can be changed.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    Arent we also facing a climate crisis?


    Having less people would reduce the burden on the planet



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    They'll end up having to subsidise rent for people on €40k a year, some of the MNCs already paying part of rent for employees,

    Build the houses/flats, freeing up the private stock, prices fall



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 Sibyl_savant


    The so-called climate crisis will pass and has nothing to do with the population. In any case if you really want to link it to population you'd be seeking to depopulate Africa and certainly not Europe. A declining population is leading to declining economy. This is why we're desperately trying to attract people to Ireland and projections of future population necessary to sustain growth has our population increase not decrease and most of the growth will be from other countries ... back to square one with your depopulation plan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20 Sibyl_savant


    Begs the question, what is "far left?" I suppose it depends on where you are on the spectrum yourself. People can't agree on what left-wing is not to mention right-wing. As far as I can tell from looking at most left and right wingers the only difference is one is nationalist whilst the other is internationalist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    "Rory Hearne: Why is the State selling public land to private developers for a fraction of its value?

    The overly close relationship between the state and property developers appears to be history repeating itself, and we saw where that left us in 2008, writes Dr Rory Hearne"

    "Yet the Oscar Traynor site, a huge plot of 43 Acres (17.4Ha) of public land, with potential for 2,600 homes, owned by Dublin City Council, is being sold to property developer Glenveagh. It has a value of €70m, but being transferred for just €14m. How is that value for money?"

    (It isn't!)

    It makes a lot of sense that councils do not build as they are unable to do it without massive overspends for what they get. 

    Not according to the experts. According to that same article, "Analysis by architect Mel Reynolds suggests it will cost €60,000 per unit more in this property developer model, than if the state developed directly and contracted a builder. That’s an additional €58m for the 853 units. The state could double the number of public affordable homes on the site if it did itself."

    I am not an architect, I do not know if Mr Reynolds calculations are correct, but on the face of it, it absolutely appears to be the case that we're pursuing the least effective, most costly way of getting some houses, when we could get a lot more for far cheaper, and would still own them in perpetuity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,478 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Could use Africa's excess population t prop up Europe's, that should keep everyone happy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The real demographic crisis is that there are too many people in the world leading to environmental depletion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    dcc tenants pay the rent at a post office, i think hap,rent allowance is usually paid directly to the landlord .i heard of a woman with 4 kids who owes the dcc 3 years rent ,she lives in a council house.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,448 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Excellent post sir.


    Well put👍


    A fine fine contribution.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    You heard of a woman? Who owes rent? No, really?!

    Yeah, people get into rent arrears, and mortgage arrears, and get declared bankrupt... Sure there's this Ronan guy who was into NAMA for €400 million a few years ago and I see his name back on building sites all over the city now.

    That's ok though, yeah?



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