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Would you support the idea of Irish Law Enforcement carrying more coercive weapons?

  • 01-11-2021 11:31am
    #1
    Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    According to our historical ethos this would be a huge "no-no".

    But let's not forget there isn't a developed continental city or country that DOESN'T ensure law enforcement can adequately defend themselves and enforce accordingly.

    It appears quite obvious at this point that regular patrol officers simply don't want the bother of having to confront potentially violent offenders and opt instead to go for lower hanging fruit, easy arrests etc.

    Quite simply cause, who needs the hassle?

    We're all human, who wants to get involved in an ass kicking contest with only one leg?

    Two patrol officers vs an angry mob?

    I might be inclined to "moon walk" on out of there myself, "nothing I can do" type of situation, whilst the locality has to bear the anguish of wanton law breakers.

    The law enforcement commissioner of Amsterdam unquestionably phrased this situation optimally, "carrots and sticks";

    Ireland has all the carrots, all the incentives, course opportunities, opportunities for self advancement, it must be said Simon Harris is playing a stormer on the higher education front with increases in funding opportunities and as of yesterday I believe commitment to initiation of another technical institute in the North West.

    It's the sticks we lack, the disciplinary measures for wanton indulgence in degenerative behaviour.

    This doesn't mean we have to turn into a police state, I mean look at Amsterdam?

    Place is like Disney Land for college students, but it's law enforcement protocols are second to none.

    Increase in disciplinary potential of Irish law enforcement would be a welcome modernization of an aging system struggling to keep pace with it's rapid growth.


    PS - this should have been a poll-oriented thread but that option isn't available currently it seems?



«1

Comments

  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Brantley Brief Oncology


    No.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,419 ✭✭✭corner of hells




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭XsApollo


    I dunno if this is already in place.

    Im not sure on every Garda carrying 24/7.

    definitley should be more armed 24/7 officers that could be called on by other gardai.

    or maybe every garda car should have a compartment with weapons that could be opened when deemed necessary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,230 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    You are proposing that multiple people die, who otherwise wouldn't. I don't see it as necessary.

    In the US, the police use this 'fear and danger' card you are trying to play here. Police facing danger every day, putting their life on the line, sob story, sob story. The actual statistics are that policing is something like 10th on a list of dangerous jobs, and the vast majority of police deaths are the result of car accidents. Put the gun away and go get a job as a lobster fisherman, or electrician, or forrest worker, if you are so scared of 'bad guys'.

    Hollywood has a lot to answer for. So no, Rambo, your proposal sucks.

    Post edited by cnocbui on


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 975 ✭✭✭Parachutes


    They should expand the armed response unit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,230 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    There was no mention of guns in the OP. Tasers, pepper spray, extendable batons should be available to all officers, and they shouldn't be worried about using them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭BronsonTB


    Not unless they are properly trained. Maybe increase the armed units for a better nationwide coverage.

    Also maybe tasers for most officers (Provided they agree to regulary using them on the anti social element)

    Sligo Metalhead



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think the opening statement is what you'd call, "intuitively obvious".

    "Here lads, go nuts!!"

    Yeah, I know Drew Harris isn't the brightest bulb in the chandelier but we'll give him some credit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,230 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The number of people who have been killed with Tasers is astonishing. They should be classed as a lethal weapon but are used as a punsiment device by law inforcement instead of a physical beating. A police officer can face assault charges for physically assaulting a suspect, but if they stand there, repeatedly pulling the trigger/pressing the button, to administer agonizing, muscle tearing shocks, that's OK - and so they do, which has lead to deaths.

    Have a good read.

    https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/media/publications/taser_law_enforcement_warnings_2010.pdf

    Why not ask is it ok for the Guards to fire darts into people's eyes, Grab a muscle and give a hard pull so the tendon rips off the bone. Punches them so the fall and hit their head on a curb and die. Rambos!

    As for pepper spray, people have lost eyes.

    Just no.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Brantley Brief Oncology


    It's even lower than that.

    Being a police officer ranks as the 22nd most dangerous job in the USA.

    https://www.facilities.udel.edu/safety/4689/

    (good post by the way)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah move out of the sticks, get a taste of the reality of urban life..... couple weeks and the likes of yourself would probably endorse the use of nukes on select areas.

    A gang of scrotes put through the windows of your house, steal or damage your vehicle, maybe just beat your brains in and leave you for dead, or hey the colorful one we all saw recently - soccer kick your dog until he has internal hemorrhaging so bad he suffocates in his own blood.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    People die driving every day too. If you are acting like scum, you'll be treated like scum. If death may be a side product of that then the amount of scummery might subside. I've also seen the damage bean bag guns can do, i'd arm them with those too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,230 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The problem is sentencing and Judges with 10 times as much concern for the poor social experience of the perpetrator than they have for the experience of victims.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Unquestionably that is a problem.

    But it is one problem among many, and "on the beat" enforcement requires some serious intervention and improvement also.

    There's a scumbag ethos which has not been held to account for faaaar too long, and it's only live police work that will affect change therein.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    I have thought for years the Gardai need to have about 50/50 divide armed... Then after a number of years giving out speed tickets and chasing joy riders if an officer wants to be a real police officer they can be armed and do real police work.. I have had several conversations with this over the years...

    If a police wants to command respect it needs to be actively deal with people with firepower... now it is not but will call in a response unit after the event...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,206 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    I’d make tasers mandatory for every Garda.

    apart from cost there is no reason for them not to have them.

    between 2015 and 2020 they were only used 125 times. About 25 times a year, so a taser nationwide is deployed once every 2 weeks approximately but there when needed. Protection and deterrent.

    there needs to be more protection for Gardai and for decent citizens from these increasing numbers of little feral dirtbags that inhabit and are causing problems in this country...seems like close to a generation of parents didn’t exactly bother their bollocks too hard parenting.





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,230 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    You are mistaking fear for respect. I'm out. This is just a make Ireland like the US thread. 'deal with people with firepower' - Jesus Christ. Grow up.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I just saw you edited this post, lol.

    Sneaky sneaky.

    Did you just insinuate I was "scared of the bad guys"?

    Yeah, real mature.

    My main concern is I'll hit some scrote so hard I'll be convicted of manslaughter.

    Then the next thread on this sub will be you complaining about me, "powerlifter and former amateur boxing champion stomps out scrote at BlueBell Luas stop - where were the police? We live in a lawless society, I can't raise my daughter".

    I'd rather the people who get paid to manage the scrote/scumbag subculture did there job so the rest of society doesn't have to go "mob justice" like in "You me and Marley".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    That post makes no sense to me... what are you trying to say...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 248 ✭✭Stephenc66


    The OP refers to our continental neighbours not the US. I believe that you are the first person to bring the US into the discussion.

    Yes I believe that the Guards should be better equipped to defend themselves. And that following the lead of our European neighbours should be allowed take much harsher action to deal with anti social behaviour.

    I have witnessed this once in Bialystok Poland and a number of times in the Algarve swift decisive effective action.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,812 ✭✭✭✭Witcher




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,464 ✭✭✭FGR


    Aside from the fact that they can be injured themselves many guards don't want to get involved in physical altercation for the fact that some lightly edited mobile phone footage can be uploaded to youtube which makes them out to be the perpetrator and lead to an investigation into them for doing their own job. An investigation by a body that does not have to inform said guard as to the allegation being made or the person making it - so imagine how easy it can be for someone to make a spurious allegation and not worry about the consequences.

    In addition to this quite a few guards have been assaulted and seen how little justice is done when the perpetrator gets a charge of common assault as opposed to assault on a peace officer - often leading to a very soft sentence on the offender.

    A lot of people like to give out about how the guards 'do nothing' but in the same breath will judge the same guard if they hear that they had to use a baton strike or pepper spray when trying to subdue a teenager - despite the fact that the teenager can easily be 6ft and 16 stone of muscle.

    Justice needs a lot of investment - in the number the guards, the equipment and vehicles available, the training available (especially CPD), the reduction in admin and a significant boost in the number of courts being held, prison spaces available and alternative restorative justice programs that focus on positive outcomes as opposed to what they are at the minute i.e. ways to save money.

    There's also the issue about the number of gardaí per 1000 people - a lot of the time the media compares AGS directly with other police services around the world whilst omitting the fact that the guards cover a lot of roles that those forces wouldn't such as immigration, social services (investigation and prosecution element), customs enforcement (again for arrest and detention which customs officers cannot do), airport and harbour policing (officers here hand over any criminal investigation to gardaí unlike in other countries), commercial vehicle inspections (which the RSA do assist with but not on the scale as the UK and other countries which have their own dedicated patrol vehicles and investigative bodies) and do this without the assistance of local municipal police services or national bodies such as the guardia civil etc. The ratios are not like for like.

    Politicians like to talk about the amazing work they've done and investments they've made into justice in this country but everything so far appears to be extra bureaucracy and window dressing which won't lead to many extra gardaí on the ground - not to mind gardaí who can actually do something for people.

    We shouldn't be in a society where people are afraid to be on the quays or on O'Connell St. But until there's a Government confident enough to stand by law and order and put in the required resources - it's not going to happen any time soon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,608 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    peoples idea of policing in Ireland is stupidly skewed by silly tv shows an long established teenage anti authority figures mentality

    reality is that Gardai are extremely vulnerable on and off duty, unarmed men and women confronting violent crime with no political support, no media support, no management support as well as multiple agency's with increasingly oppressive oversight and no experience or knowledge of policing in Ireland

    Firearms are being withdrawn from detectives across the country in favour of ASU spread sparely across the county( ie a hour or more away from many places) outside dublin and limited units in city's.

    As for people saying they knew what they were getting into and should expect to be assaulted and threatened with no recourse ? ?

    did you know what you work life was when you started out ? if you do you have a very boring life , and young gardai are realizing how little they are valued by the state and public and are leaving in large numbers.

    If you want effective policing in Ireland to tackle crime and criminals you need to resource it properly not just photo ops and media sound bites for the politicians.

    The days of little johnny getting caught doing some thing silly and getting a talking to and dropped home or a Garda doing you a favor such as helping with non policing issues are over due to political interference

    As for more tools ,? A baton is only as effective as the person swinging it . meant to be retrained every two years ( pushed out to about 5 now ) Some times pepper spray doesn't work , Highly intoxicated people, people with mental health issues , some times tazer doesn't work , layers of clothing environmental conditions ie if the person is soaking wet or danger of fire , some times firearms are more dangerous than helpful. Properly trained and equipped with the relevant tool is the only way. Lock boxes with those in district patrol cars works in many other country. but will never happen here due to cost of training



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I can't really agree with this. Look at European countries where the police are armed, and there isn't any real reduction in crime, and if anything, the amount of violent crime tends to be higher. If you've spent any amount of time in Mainland Spain, and have ever had an encounter with any branch of their police, it's not a nice experience.

    The answer to Irish crime is not to arm our Gardai. The answer is proper sentencing and a solid foundation towards reform. Not the mealy mouthy approach that tends to happen now, but real sentencing that provides a reason for people not to commit crimes, for fear of what they might face when caught.

    I think more people need to spend time abroad, and realise that Irish crime is rather... tame, in comparison to other countries.. and I'd say a large part of that is due to our police not being armed like the are in other countries.

    Gardai should be supported by armed officers. Oh, I also agree with the resistance to tasers being used. I've known a few people who were hit by them for minor offenses, that should have resulted in a few harsh words from the cops. If police have the use of such weapons, they'll be used more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,495 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    You are talking as though gardai are throwing themselves into rooms of gunfire with nothing but a high viz jacket and a breakfast roll. What do you think the armed support units are there for? And on top of that, they never confront armed criminals head on, but rather wait until they can catch them off guard via house raids etc.

    How many times have we seen in the news where the gards raid warehouses seizing millions in drugs when the warehouses were empty or only made 2 or 3 arrests. The gardai will choose their battles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,608 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    point proven re the understanding of policing ..... sigh

    on average one gardai is assaulted every day.

    As i already said ASU are few and far between , much more so out side of dublin and are a Support not responce unit, they do not take calls in general

    house raids are done the way they are in order to catch criminals when they dont expect it thats the whole idea of doing it like that . world wide . you dont understand that ?

    next time you read about a large seizure read the whole article and see if it is linked to a traffic stop or some other low key event which is as a result of front line unarmed uniform policing. its usually that or intelligence either human source or electronic



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,495 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    I said support, you said response. I said nothing about house raids that was wrong, so where's the misunderstanding?

    I know all too well of the tactics gardai use - with 3 home invasions within 1 kilometer of my house and for each it took over an hour for a squad car to respond. Fat chance we'll see gardai throwing themselves into a room of gunfire anytime soon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,381 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    the amount of scummery won't subside with death being a bi-product of dealing with the police.

    what deals with scummery is more police and locking them up, not weapons as the scum will just get their own.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Brantley Brief Oncology


    Studies have shown the great importance of having police on the beat when it comes to reducing crime.

    Instead of having the Gardaí rolling down the North Quays in a Lenco BearCat and armed to the gills, let's get back to the simplest and most effective form of deterrence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,608 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    your not adding anything to this conversation but proving the point of pre existing issues

    home invasion ? do you mean residential burglary ?

    my point about proper resource would seem relevant

    why do you want gardai to throw themselves into a room of gunfire ? no person would ever do that your not talking sense



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    How many dead scumbags have re-offended, ever, in any country?? At the very least, 1 death would be a subsistence of 1. Maths not your strong point??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Your allegedly a cop and don't know the difference between a residential burglary and a home invasion?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,608 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    ya home invasion is a american term , never used in Ireland , and who said i was a cop ?, i mean are you a fandy? mo



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There is no such thing as a residential burglary or home invasion in this country.

    Every guard should have a Taser, reason being that they are a lot safer then the steel baton that they carry. Would you rather get a belt of a steel baton or a little shock that has no after affects?

    Apart from that, there are plenty of firearms holders in AGS, nearly too many.

    Also, the OP has some seriously worrying threads......I visualise a white supremacist type person sitting in their bedroom....possibly the type that shoots up schools in America.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Sorry Mikethecop, I’ve no idea where I got the idea you were a cop.

    And for a term never used in Ireland, it’s used quite a bit, maybe you should tell the media?? I’ll get on to Stevethereporter, oh no, he’s not a reporter.

    “A manpointed out the home of an innocent family to a group of men looking for his friend who owed them money leading to a “terrifying” home invasion, a court has heard.”

    “Man (30s) charged in relation to home invasion and aggravated burglary”

    “A woman who was awoken by a burglar who was armed with a knife was injured in a confrontation during a home invasion in Kildare.”

    “TWO West Clare brothers who subjected their aunt, uncle and young cousins to a ‘terrifying home invasion’ ordeal two years ago have walked free from court.”



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,606 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    That would be another no, since you have completely failed to convince me.

    Also have you every served? Do you know what is like to be issue weapons, be authorised to take human life on be the of the sate, know that in the next few hours you may meet someone that will without hesitation take your life because the believe you are armed? I find people that take about tooling up usually expect someone else to do it for them.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Doesn't matter what the media say, there is no such offence in Ireland



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,381 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    it's ultimately irrelevant since even with that individual gone there is someone else to replace, therefore death doesn't bring down the rate over all.

    my maths is fine, thanks.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    arraignment is another American term in everyday use here... we have switched to US Emglish... the power of the Corporations...

    DUI charge... another one from a tread heading here...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,904 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    The best person to actually answer this would be a member of the force because the rest of us don't really know if it would be a good idea or not.

    Although I think it would be no harm if they could give the inbred scobes that abuse them on a daily basis a good kick in the nuts to soften their cough.



  • Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Or go back to pre independence police baton.. 62cm mounted police baton.

    https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/dublin-metropolitan-police-batons/



  • Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    With regards Spain and visiting with young children.. The Civil Guard run areas appear the safest.. the fear factor is great in that case. Seen them round up drunken british yobs in a mainly Spanish resort



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    On a person to person beat-cop level, what officer in their right mind, unarmed, wants to engage a bunch of chavvy trash delinquents?

    And that's what we see.

    There's beat cops, not too many, and they'd engage a couple drunk college students or a J-walker, but a bunch of potentially violent thugs?

    I mean, that scene in Eyre square where that ****face from Dublin shot the explosive into the 19 yr/old girls face, popping her eyeball (yes, confirmed via both clinician and main stream media), I would have absolutely no beef if an armed officer shot him in the leg say, or pistol whipped him.

    ......

    But we all know they wouldn't even so much as engage him (who needs the hassle?) - and they didn't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    It is only very recently the news media use this word when reporting from courts in this country...



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The media do not decide what is legal terminology. Just because they didn't use it until recently, not sure if that's true, it is still a legal term.

    In the way that home invasion may be used by the media, but there is no such offence here in Ireland. The offence is aggravated burglary.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No one is worried about using them, they are trained in the use and the legal use of same.



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