Acceptable Covid death rates

01-11-2021 12:43am

Our vaccine rate is high, but there is also the issue of immunity offered by vaccines waning.

A booster programme needs to be seriously considered for all at risk groups, at minimum - not just the over 60s. My GP told me he thinks it is inevitable that they will have to give boosters to all in the at risk groups.

I would be surprised if many who are amongst the immuno-compromised or at high risk groups refusing a booster.

PeadarCo · 01-11-2021 7:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118099756#Comment_118099756

I think you've missed the point of what I'm saying. I'm not speaking about what's happening now, I'm speaking hypothetically. If you want for example 0 Covid cases in Ireland ie you consider any case of Covid to unacceptable, this would mean a huge amount of businesses would have to remain closed for some undefined period effectively a ban given the results of lockdowns in Ireland. Now aiming for 0 Covid cases is an extreme answer to the question in the title of the thread. However what I'm trying to say is that aiming for 0 deaths from Covid death comes with certain trade offs.

Obviously the government, Nphet and society at large have decided there is such thing as an acceptable level of Covid cases and deaths given the very limited restrictions at present.

SupplyandDemandZone · 01-11-2021 8:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097910#Comment_118097910

They'd just lie about any end date if they went that road. I'm done with masks, distancing and jabs personally. Vaccination uptake will never be as high as it is right now and yet they still have all these measures restricting normal life. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

01-11-2021 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118100329#Comment_118100329

I've never said (anywhere) that I expected 0 covid cases, or for the virus to be totally eradicated, so to be honest, I a little puzzled why you have directed this at me.

Ultimately, if we do end up in a situation where another lockdown is being considered, it won't be up to you or I to decide, it will be up to the government and as I've said before, they have a duty of care to all citizens, including those at higher risk.

But in saying that, whether we end up in another lockdown really is down to how the public chooses to behave now. We know by now that the vaccines prevent serious illness, but don't prevent transmission, and vaccine immunity wanes. So efforts still need to be made to prevent transmission.

And before anyone jumps on me - NO, I am not saying nightclubs should be closed down again, or people shouldn't visit their friends, whatever....

However, common sense should tell you that if enough people start ignoring the basic restrictions still being asked of them, (even, in some cases, flouting them, and there are examples of these on this thread) then its inevitable that cases numbers will increase, meaning hospital numbers will increase, numbers in ICU will increase, and it will result in more restrictions / a lockdown, that nobody wants.

And they'll have no one to blame but themselves, though they will try to blame it on the Government, NPHET, complain about protecting high risk groups - basically blame anyone and everyone but themselves.

crossman47 · 01-11-2021 2:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118100360#Comment_118100360

These measures were to protect you and your family. If you don't want to take them, fine but then don't complain if the very limited restrictions now in place have to extended to protect the rest of us.

PeadarCo · 01-11-2021 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101570#Comment_118101570

I don't why you keep strawmanning my posts. You keep arguing against something I'm not saying. I used the example of 0 cases as an example for illustrative purposes. I acknowledged this in my post. I never said you or anyone else on this thread was arguing for that.

My point is everything involves trade offs and people should be honest about the trade offs they are making. If a person thinks no deaths/cases/ hospitalisations etc etc is acceptable (and I'm not acussing you of saying any of that) certain restrictions would have be enforced and all the consequences that go with that. No option is cost free when it comes to Covid. The same is also true for anyone who doesn't want any restrictions and everything in between.(again just to be clear I am not acussing you of wanting no restrictions, my response is to the thread topic and not you specifically beyond the first paragraph of this post)

01-11-2021 2:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101857#Comment_118101857

I actually don't know what you're arguing with me about at this point, as I have done my best to make myself clear.

I'll leave it at that.

Wanderer78 · 01-11-2021 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118100360#Comment_118100360

fooled! how?

01-11-2021 4:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118099259#Comment_118099259

Even if she did have arthritis or a hip problem it's still no excuse to being overweight and unhealthy, exercise isn't the be all and end all or weight loss the most important thing is your diet and consuming less calories.

I make no apologies for what I said I'm tired of being restricted in my freedom in order to protect those who are unwilling to protect themselves.

By the way just to clarify something I am not an anti-vaccine what I am against is people getting vaccinated I'm still having to abide by restrictions we were sold a lie that once we were vaccinated we would be back to normal it's time to admit that we failed to eliminate the virus and go back to normal regardless.

01-11-2021 4:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101969#Comment_118101969

I think what he was getting at was we were sold a story telling us that if we all got vaccinated or we reached a high level of vaccination as we have done then we would be able to end all of the restrictions and get back to a life of normality. I and I'm sure many others feel like we have been lied to, so I and I imagine many others will not be getting any additional vaccines unless the government end all of the current restrictions.

astrofool · 01-11-2021 4:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102547#Comment_118102547

I would argue that the "time" to do that is post winter when there isn't as much pressure on hospitals rather than trying to exacerbate the situation further (and that we should have ended most restrictions back in August in the first place, but I understand why they're not getting rid of the few remaining restrictions at this moment in time).

01-11-2021 4:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102632#Comment_118102632

Unfortunately that's what we get for having such a crap health service, maybe it's time to take a Stalinist approach to solving the problem with the health service, take random managers outside and shoot them in the back of the head for being useless.

Goldengirl · 01-11-2021 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102547#Comment_118102547

How do you know from looking at a person what their diet is? You must have special powers with your jaundiced view of other people that you can make a judgement like that.

It takes medics and dieticians years of study and research to come to a conclusion that you appear to have made in about 5 minutes about a person because she annoyed you and your pals on a stag party. Does drink help the diagnosis?

Who said you were anti vaxx ?

Never said anything about vaccines there.

Drunken yvbs, yes!

Cruel post, yes!

Cringe worthy, yes.

01-11-2021 5:46pm

It may take dietitians years of study but it's a proven fact that if you consume less calories then you need you will lose weight. Also just to be clear I wasn't the one on the stag party just another unfortunate passenger who are to put up with the stag party and then the fat lady loudly complaining.

cnocbui · 01-11-2021 5:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118099217#Comment_118099217

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233656959833?epid=10007619231&hash=item36670a4359:g:JMoAAOSwe51Z6mm~

Wanderer78 · 01-11-2021 7:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102600#Comment_118102600

....so vaccines were going to completely solve this virus thing, when vaccines are well known to not work 100%?

theres no conspiracy folks, this is just normal procedure with a serious contagious virus, no government on the planet could make such claims, ours certainly didn't, i think some just seriously misinterpreted the information! theres been no lying folks, this is just normal, for the circumstances, be prepared for anything with this thing.....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102694#Comment_118102694

i know this is a yoke, but its really just a fcuking stupid one, our health system is bad for various different complex reasons, fault lies equally between the public and private entities of it, it probably wont change post virus either, due to these complexities

Goldengirl · 02-11-2021 12:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102970#Comment_118102970

Well glad to hear that. For a minute there I thought you were even worse .

But you are wrong on the calories blah .

There's metabolism and hormones and body type as well as type of food consumed , underlying conditions , medications etc .

But how would anyone know all of this and how they are all connected and how it is affected by ill health ...unless they spent years studying it!

Certainly not a passenger( whose intelligence and understanding is an unknown at this point ) on a train who just sees a " fat person " !

02-11-2021 12:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118104810#Comment_118104810

I don't care how you try and dress it up the fact is simple if you wish to lose weight cut back on calories and eventually there will come a point where you do start losing weight at the end of the day human bodies as complicated as they may be are still subject to the basic laws of the universe one of which is the law of thermodynamics.

You seem very offended by my comment were you by any chance the woman on the train?

Goldengirl · 02-11-2021 12:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118104835#Comment_118104835

No, but that rude comment from you does not surprise me.

I look after people who have weight gain for many reasons so I abhor ignorance .

You know some people just cannot gain weight due to medical conditions , it's the same the other way round.

The main problem is the depression it causes some which can make it a vicious circle .

If you are lucky you will never have to deal with that .

Mind you karma is a funny thing . Good night.

02-11-2021 2:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102600#Comment_118102600

You weren't lied to. You heard what you wanted to hear.

There was no absolute guarantee that all restrictions would be removed on a certain date. They gave dates where the level of restrictions would be revisited and reassessed in light of the most up to date information and advice they had on case numbers, but removal of restrictions was always conditional on what the current conditions were like.

If anyone truly thought the government would go ahead and remove all restrictions October 22, disregarding the numbers going up steadily and the issue of vaccine immunity waning / boosters hovering over us, then they were being overly optimistic, to put it politely.

From day one, this pandemic has always been, and continues to be, an ever-evolving situation.

marilynrr · 02-11-2021 3:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118105127#Comment_118105127

No, people heard what the government wanted them to hear. They knew exactly how people would take what was said and they absolutely misled people. Of course people will feel lied to.

When we were put on level 5 restrictions on the 24th of December that was supposed to be in place until the 12th of January. They might have said "at least" the 12th of January but it's still misleading when they know themselves that it's going to be longer, then they just extend, and extend and extend and all they do is frustrate people.

If we go back into lockdown in January it will be the same thing...they'll say 3 weeks or so at least....people 'hear' 3 weeks because that's what the government want them to hear because that's what the government think people will comply with, then they extend and extend again...Just be honest and say it will be months!

Some people took the jabs when they didn't want to and many pe

As for removal of restrictions being conditional on what current conditions are like, well current conditions seem pretty dire to me, pretty much everything is open to the vast majority of the country who are vaccinated so I really can't see what the point is in even having a few remaining restrictions!

Mask wearing, social distancing, hand washing etc. I can totally understand, but restricting a few unvaccinated people from going to certain places is not going to make a difference!

marilynrr · 02-11-2021 4:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118098553#Comment_118098553

You really just need to look at the bigger picture behind what people are saying!

Lots of people are now saying "**** masks and social distancing, I'm not doing it anymore"

But it's not about masks or social distancing at all. People are just reacting with anger to the lockdowns and restrictions and false hope and the realisation that even now with such a high % vaccinated there doesn't appear to be any end date to it. They got vaccinated and that's not enough, the threat of lockdown is still there, the doomsday news is still constant, people are talking about 4th booster shots and so on, it's getting to people!

If all the threats of lockdowns and further restrictions were gone I personally don't think people would be saying they weren't going to be wearing masks etc. anymore.

Before you say it, yes I know that it's extremely hard for the vulnerable also, they're dealing with all of the above, along with the risk to their health, along with knowing there are some people in society who are saying they couldn't be bothered about masks anymore! It's extremely tough!

I understand that, but we can't just treat the people who are not vulnerable to covid like their needs don't matter either. It's not normal to be living in a time like this and people are struggling in many different ways due to the pandemic. Some peoples life plans have been altered drastically because of covid, some childrens development has suffered to protect the vulnerable. We can't just focus on one group in society.

I know most restrictions have eased, but the threat of more is still there.

The doomsdayers have a part to play in this also, those going on about how life may never return to normal or saying this could go on for years and years and years. When people here that then some are going to get the urge to fight back.

It's too black and white to say people are just being asked to show some basic civil responsibility.

02-11-2021 4:55am

Back in January 2021 they didn't know about Delta.

Look, the dog on the street knows how this goes now. The government had to give the public timeframes for reviews, if they didn't people would be screaming at them for not giving them. So they were pretty much damned if they did, and damned if they didn't. They offered optimism, (probably too optimistic, I'll admit) but not guarantees.

I don't know why anyone expects the government to be able to give them a fixed "end date" in a constantly evolving situation - unless what you're really saying is they should throw in the towel and while they're at it, throw the high risk groups under the bus.

I'm seeing lots of resentful comments about high risk groups.

If you're talking about restrictions on entry by the unvaccinated to places where covid certs are required, that is within each individual power to control.

If someone is being restricted from doing anything due to being unvaccinated, (genuine medical reasons excluded) then in my view, their own choice is what is restricting them, nothing else.

(eta) Reminder - everything is reopened, so the vast majority can get back to very close to normal.

But if harsher restrictions do have to be re-introduced, please don't blame the high risk groups for it. Like you say, they have it hard enough as it is.

marilynrr · 02-11-2021 5:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118099574#Comment_118099574

It's not true that they would never be able to take part in society again due to this.

I know some extremely vulnerable people who after the first lockdown have been living their lives as freely as possible. Socialising, dating, mixing with large groups, all before anyone even had a vaccine. They weren't following the guidelines at all in relation to mixing in peoples houses. My elderly grandfather was back in the bookies the second it opened last year, the only reason he didn't go was because it was closed, not because he felt like he was forced to stay at home cocooning. Many vulnerable people would choose to go back to live their lives as normal and would rather not be hearing every single day that they're at risk.

Of course then there will be some vulnerable people who would feel like they couldn't go back to taking part in society and no I don't think it's ok. But some of those vulnerable people would have not developed such severe health anxiety if it wasn't for the constant talk about it and how they were at risk. I understand that people have medical appointments and would hear it from them but it's another thing entirely to hear about it all day every day on the news/radio/internet and have everyone speaking about it constantly and seeing masks, signs etc. everywhere as a constant reminder.

One of the OP's posts was "Those who had underlying health conditions would still be alive if not for Covid. I know if I catch Covid I will be 6 feet under but if Covid was not here I would live at least 20-30 more years minimum."

It's simply not true to claim that those who had underlying health conditions would still be alive if not for covid. Some maybe, but not all. There have been many many families speaking out with anger about their family members death being attributed to covid when the person was already extremely unwell and had been succumbing to other health issues at the time they caught covid.

Also no one can know for sure that they would die if they caught covid. Some of the most vulnerable people have survived it. As for covid not being here and living for at least 20-30 years minimum, again no one can know that, there are other viruses, worse flus than the one the OP caught before. If covid goes away there are still risks!

If covid stays around as say an epidemic then part of the recovery for the vulnerable in society is going to be about undoing that flawed thinking that some vulnerable people have now developed where as another poster put it 'covid is your kryptonite'.

marilynrr · 02-11-2021 5:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118105217#Comment_118105217

They knew about it alright. They just weren't too concerned about it!

Yes we know how it goes now, but you should also realise now that the way that is goes is part of what is making some people so angry and frustrated and feeling misled. Different people in society are going to react different ways so yes the government are damned if they say a 3 week lockdown or a 3 month lockdown, but people are having a very human response to a situation that they're just completely fed up of and it has nothing at all to do with not being bothered to wear a mask!

No I'm not talking about restrictions on entry, i'm talking about more restrictions in general. There's only going to be so long that they can blame the unvaccinated for!

eddie73 · 02-11-2021 9:45am

I think an acceptable level of death should be reflected as a percentage of crude deaths we have experienced since 1960. This ranges from 0.6-0.75% of the entire population per annum. Our population is growing older, so this percentage is going to increase naturally.

Fandymo · 02-11-2021 10:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102837#Comment_118102837

IF you're a big fat fatty, you didn't become a big fat fatty by eating lettuce. It's not rocket science and feeling sorry for yourself isn't gonna change that. Move more, eat less. I've hypothyroidism, I've a bit of a beer belly, but if i ever start to go into Blob mode I get the runners and the headphones and get out running three nights a week until i'm back to where I feel ok. It's not particularly hard.

CivilCybil · 02-11-2021 10:56am

I haven't read all the posts but here's my take.

I am high risk. I've taken my vaccines (both doses) and my booster. I wear a mask when I'm out and I limit my social interactions where I can.

With such a high number of people vaccinated then I'm comfortable with things reopening and life getting somewhat back to normal for those who aren't high risk. I can appreciate the tediousness of lockdown.

I would say though that the number of people refusing a booster worries me. The reopening only works if the vaccine rate stays high and with waning protection we'll need to all step up and keep protection going until it's no longer needed or only needed by those who are higher risk (like with the flu jab which I also get every year).

I will say though that those who are high risk or of higher risk should be able to work from home. There's a lot of contradiction out there for those who are high risk. For example my workplace tells me I'm not high risk and can return to the office. Only people who are currently undergoing the treatment I had are deemed "very high risk". So I'm back in the office but it's socially distanced so that's fine. But a day will come when I'm back and there is no social distancing. And the government guidelines will tell me I'll be fine. But also tell me to get a booster because I'm high risk.

And my consultant will tell me to get my booster and that I'm high risk but the government guidelines tell me I can go back into an office with vaccinated and unvaccinated etc. And not socially distance and basically roll the dice with that.

That's where I get confused and somewhat cautious and nervous.

But yes, some people will get covid a die. I could be one of them. All I can do is protect myself and I should be allowed to do that and not forced into situations where I'm at risk.

For those in front facing jobs I'm not sure how it will work and I do really feel their fear and worry about their position when all restrictions are lifted.

02-11-2021 12:00pm

Thank you @CivilCybil - you've summed up a lot of my concerns and my situation with work as well, though I haven't been offered a booster yet, and my doctor says he doesn't know when I will. It will be six months since I had my second vaccine later this month, so naturally I am concerned about the reports of waning immunity in light of increasing case numbers.

Stay well.

02-11-2021 12:05pm

@marilynrr "They knew about it alright. They just weren't too concerned about it!"

The scientists knew delta was emerging as a new variant but did not know everything about it or exactly how much more transmissable it was going to be, or if the vaccines would be effective against it.

There is a new mutation of delta now emerging in the UK that is being closely watched by scientists.

Do they know everything about it yet? No. They have to study it first.

Acceptable Covid death rates

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