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The Irish protocol.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,742 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    He can't link to it, because what the Taoiseach did was hold up a copy of the Irish Times (of the same day or day before he was speaking) which featured an interview with a daughter of a victim, who feared a return of the custom posts where her dad was killed.

    Her and others in the report fears were the same as the governments.

    Maybe those victims were making threats too?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,936 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    Good to know what he was alleging. I expected nothing less from him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,742 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The resigned leader of the main Unionist party, who faked the existence of death threats blew the story up to the one downcow is repeating.

    Varadkar's speech/talk was about the fears of people who live along where the hard border would be. People who were victims of the violence caused by that border's very existence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    If you check back a few posts you’ll see I referred to the Irish pm ‘talking up the potential of violence’. You are misrepresenting what I say to attempt to avoid productive discussion.

    let me be even clearer. At no time did I think the Irish pm was going to pull a mask on and go burn a bus, nor did I think he would organise anyone to go out and attack anyone. If that came across in anything I said then I apologise and correct it now.

    what he did do was talk up the potential of violence to make gains for his desired outlook. He, other Irish ministers and senior republican and nationalist politicians played on their perceptions that their side would start attacking and killing people if there were physical checks at the border. You may show me evidence to the contrary, but I am unaware of senior unionist politicians or British ministers saying that they thought their side would start attacking and killing people if there was Irish Sea checks. Your politicians are playing with fire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,643 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Your claim is that he's talking up the potential of violence "to make gains for his desired outlook". It doesn't seem to occur to you - or, if it has, you keep very quiet about it - that his aim is to call attention to the risk of violence, in the hope of thereby averting the violence.

    From the get-go, Brexiters have have pursued the Brexit process with complete disregard for, or in open denial of, the threat it poses to the Irish peace process. To ignore this, or even to support it as many unionist leaders did, and then accuse those who point out the attendant risks of attempting "to make gains for their desired outlook" is reprehensible. Who is engaged in the more disgraceful behaviour — those who threaten the peace process in pursuit of their ideological agenda, or those who point out the threats in the hope of averting them?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    skimpydoo you asked for a link to the Irish pm holding up the paper here is the first one I came across. This is out of the Belfast telegraph which tries to fill the middle ground between the newsletter and Irish news. Read it and try to see it through moderate unionists eyes I think it is very important we try to see others positions in this

    https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/victims-of-ira-accuse-taoiseach-of-hyping-up-hard-border-violence-fears-37439393.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Tbh, I didn’t expect it of him. I thought it was below the belt, and dishonest. The atrocity he used had zero to do with an economic border or trade checks and I would be surprised if he didn’t know. The atrocity was about an ongoing murderous conflict over nationality and sectarianism. I was completely wrong to use it. I want to believe it was just naivety but it’s a struggle.



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mere hours after a violent attack: "How dare politicians bring up the potential of violent attacks."



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    So when I put myself in your shoes, that is a reasonable post with some rational and I appreciate you engaging in that manner.

    now put yourself in my shoes. I am a unionist who did not vote for brexit. I have accepted it because the majority in the Union voted for it in a referendum. We can argue all day about how that referendum was run etc but it’s done and won’t change.

    where I disagree with you is that if Leo and those advising him were being ‘graceful’ and had the interests of all the people at heart, then they would be using any influence they had to minimise checks between Stranraer and Larne. They would be speaking out in support of both communities in ni. They would be saying we will try to help establish workable arrangements for goods entering ni that are not heading south. Instead imho he has taken up the concerns of one community and by holding up pictures of our people getting murdered, is riding roughshod over the hurts of people in the north.

    I honestly didn’t/don’t think there will be major armed conflict again on this island due to checks at either Newry or Larne. I trust we have moved on somewhat and 9/11 etc changes everything. But I can’t say for sure. I think there is a risk and I think that risk applies equally whether the checks are at Newry or Larne. The only way violence can be sustained is if it is tit-for-tat and we get back in our trenches, and it doesn’t matter a jot who starts it over which checks where

    I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from.

    …and I honestly believe the references to potential violence by Leo etc has significantly increased the chances of violence from loyalists. Almost given permission. Dangerous stuff!



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,643 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The naivety, surely, would lie in thinking that the hardening of the border would have no implications for the conflict over nationality and sectarianism?

    The strength of feeling disclosed in the Telegraph article is understandable -nobody who lived through that era escaped without some degree of trauma - but there really is an element of shooting the messenger here. Sam from Newtownhamilton is reported as saying that he's scared into believing that violence may restart in the event of a hard border, and he says that Varadkar's words are a "shame and disgrace". But what's Varadkar supposed to do? Is he supposed to ignore the threat to peace, to let the hard border and its consequences unfold because trying to alert people to the danger would trigger Sam? Would Sam be better off if Varadkar shut up, the UK government had its way, the border hardened and the violence recommenced?

    The criticisms of Varadkar seem to me to come from a place of denial. People are either in denial about the risk that there might be a hard border - they buy the Vote Leave line that if the UK says it doesn't want a hard border then there won't be one, regardless of what the UK does - or they are in denial about the risk that a hard border would lead to violence. Trevor Ringland, for example, says that customs checks would be "purely a business arrangement" and that there'd be no block to people crossing the border, and he therefore seems to imply that it's impossible that that could give rise to violence. But he must know that, to people who find the partition of Ireland offensive to their identity, border controls are not "purely a business arrangement", and that purely customs-related border controls were in the past the object of violent attacks.

    Essentially, the critiques of Varadkar offered here are only valid if everybody buys into a unionist perspective. (Not coincidentally, everyone quoted in the article seems to come from the unionist community.) But of course the troubles unfolded as they did precisely because not everybody does share a unionist perspective. Varadkar is right to consider the implications of that, and his critics are wrong. Trying to insist that Brexit be conducted as if everyone was a unionist is a highly dangerous course of action, and should be called out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,643 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    You say that “if Leo and those advising him were being ‘graceful’ and had the interests of all the people at heart, then they would be using any influence they had to minimise checks between Stranraer and Larne”. Two points about that:

    First, the incident you’re complaining about occurred in 2018, before the NI Protocol was thought of, and so at a time when Larne/Stranraer checks were not an issue. You imply that he’s “holding up pictures of our people getting murdered” as an alternative to establishing workable arrangements for GB-NI trade. That is flat-out false. 

    Secondly, your question implies that you think Varadkar etc haven’t been doing all they can to minimise checks between Stranraer and Larne. Whereas, of course, the truth is that they consistently have been. As I have pointed out to you more than once, Ireland’s interests very much lie in the lowest possible levels of checks between Ireland (all parts) and Great Britain, and they have at every turn backed the option which would tend to minimise checks. It is the UK government which has chosen checks, and which has made choices - and continues to make choices - that maximise rather than minimise those checks. There is a limit to what the Irish government can do about this. If you can point to something specific that they could have done but didn’t do, please do. If you can’t, well, why do you think that might be?

    I share you hope that the checks, whether at Larne or at Newry, will not lead to a return to violence. (For what it is worth, for reasons I have already explained, I think that checks at Larne are less likely to do so, so if the UK government cannot be dissuaded from insisting on checks then Larne is the place for them. But it would be perverse to blame the Irish government for this.)

    And I note that you concede yourself that you “cannot be sure” that checks won’t lead to violence. How can you object to Varadkar pointing out a risk that you concede is a real risk? If the UK government’s choices present a threat to the peace process, are we supposed to shut up about it? As I say, I think you’re shooting the messenger here; Varadkar wouldn’t be warning about the implications of border checks if the UK weren’t making choices leading to a need for border checks, and your ire should be redirected at the proper target.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Useful posts.

    but I think your posts come from the premise that there is no risk of a return to violence created by a hardened border at Larne. I think you misunderstand unionism here.

    do you remember what a ‘hard border’ on the Garvaghy road done post ceasefires. Such a simple thing and it took us right back into the trenches. I know friends I had and we could understand each other on most things about the conflict even during the violent conflict and yet we were pushed further apart over a cultural/indenture/rights issue. Scary stuff at the time and even looking back. That could have spiralled completely out of control. Tbh I thought it had. The death of those three kids probably brought us back from the precipice. Had the circumstances been different then those killings could have had the opposite impact.

    none of us know the future impact of either community feeling their identity has been significantly diminished.

    I honestly don’t know if Leo’s advisers are naive about the impact of checks at Larne or if they are playing fast and loose with peace.

    I completely disagree with you about more chance of conflict over Newry checks. Potentially different conflict. But I fear the Larne checks, if they lead to conflict, will be a much more devastating form of violence and will be more sectarian by nature.

    I think the very fact Sinn Fein do very well politically will keep them from endorsing or openly supporting violent conflict. The loyalists are much more dangerous because they don’t have an electorate to worry about losing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    You say

    ”And I note that you concede yourself that you “cannot be sure” that checks won’t lead to violence. How can you object to Varadkar pointing out a risk that you concede is a real risk? If the UK government’s choices present a threat to the peace process, are we supposed to shut up about it? As I say, I think you’re shooting the messenger here;”

    tbh I would not be calling out Leo if he had said this about Newry and Larne checks. If he had held up two pictures; the other being the Dublin bombings.

    I would say what he was doing was extremely dangerous but I wouldn’t be calling him out on using the potential of violence to progress his cause.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Listen to the last few minutes to this.

    join it at 45:50 question on protocol and you’ll get what I mean about Leo et al not looking for best solutions.

    Interestingly the very next question they deal with sums up the approach of Tom, francie and many mores tactics on here very accurately

    https://the-kitchen-cabinet-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/the-kitchen-cabinet-podcast-episode-1



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,643 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I think this is unfair. You're referring to an incident that occurred in 2018. Nobody was planning or projecting border checks at Larne at that time. If Varadkar has started speculating that there would be border checks at Larne and that they might lead to violence, perhaps then you could justifiably accuse him of scaremongering, because he would have been warning about the implications of a scenario that literally nobody was promoting or considering at the time. Whereas the hardening of the RoI/NI border was very much a real possibility in 2018.

    And when, in the post before, you say "I think your posts come from the premise that there is no risk of a return to violence created by a hardened border at Larne" you mistake me. I'm not saying that border checks at Larne present no risk; just that - in this regard and in others - they are generally less of a problem than border checks at Newry. If the UK government's choices mean that there must be border checks, then it is better that they be at Larne than at Newry; that's all. Obviously, I would vastly prefer that there be no border checks either at Newry or at Larne, and so would Varadkar, and so would the Irish government, and so would the EU, and so, of course, would the people of Northern Ireland. But we must be realistic about what all these forces can achieve in opposition to the will of a UK that, on the one hand, has "taken back control" and, on the other hand, has no regard for the wishes or interests of the people of Northern Ireland.

    The plain truth is that Ireland and the EU are much better situated to avert border checks at the RoI/NI border, which is a bilateral concern over which they have a legitimate and recognised interest, than they are to avert border checks at the GB/NI border, which is first and foremost an internal UK matter. We can only protect you from some of the consequences of the Brexit inflicted on you by your government against your interests and your expressed wishes; not from all of them.

    The only way to ensure that there are no border controls either at Newry or at Larne is to have a softer Brexit. This is not within the power or procurement of either Ireland or the EU and we cannot be blamed for not achieving it.



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    "I honestly don’t know if Leo’s advisers are naive about the impact of checks at Larne or if they are playing fast and loose with peace."

    This was all predicted before the Brexit referendum. It was obvious what the issues with Northern Ireland would be. The people taking risks regarding peace were people who supported it and the border that must be placed somewhere.

    Except that's not true. There didn't have to be a border somewhere. A magical solution was found that kept Northern Ireland perfectly aligned with Great Britain with no borders anywhere. Unionists rejected this.

    It is hard to take you seriously when you accuse Ireland of playing fast and loose with the peace process, when it was your own community who supported Brexit and rejected the Backstop, both of which led directly to borders. It's frankly abhorrent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I could accept what you were saying about checks not being considered at Larne in 2018 , except I am not aware of Leo and all nationalist politicians being struck dumb by brexit.

    not one that I am aware of is now encouraging the eu to bring in new flexibilities to remove checks to maintain peace in Ireland and prevent future Dublin Monaghan bombs. Tell me why not?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    You need to stop looking back. We are where we are.

    do you think it is not within the gift of the Eu to say ‘we will consider again other options to prevent additional checks at Larne’ ?



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Fine. We are where we are which is loyalists burning buses because of measures the British government suggested, championed, and won an election on.

    Where else are we? The EU proposing extremely generous easements to prevent additional checks at Larne, while the British government is picking a fight over the ECJ, which not a single rational person in Northern Ireland cares about. You don't even care about it, but you support the fight.

    Had the UK just accepted the proposals removing a load of the checks, Northern Ireland today would have one extra bus. It is sadly in London and Loyalist's interests to stoke this violence, so Northern Ireland will burn.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,643 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    As for Irish politicians not being struck dumb by Brexit, they were certainly concerned about it before the 2016 referendum and dismayed by the outcome of that referendum. They made no secret of the fact, and both before and after the referendum they actively engaged in planning for minimising the damage of Brexit. But they could hardly be criticised for not having forecast the monstrous incompetence and confusion of the UK's implementation of Brexit and I struggle to see how you could criticise them in 2018 for not forecasting that Boris Johnson would become Prime Minister and would pursue hard Brexit for Great Britain by seeking to erect trade controls between GB and NI. Did you forecast that? Can you point to anyone who was forecasting that in 2018?

    As for people not encouraging the EU to bring in new flexibilities, what makes you think they are not? The EU has always made it clear that it is willing to introduce new flexibilities; do you suppose Ireland has played no part in this, or has lobbied against it? Ireland's interests are very much served by the introduction of new flexibilities; it seems bizarre to assume that they have opposed or failed to support them. You must have some reason for thinking this, but I have genuinely no idea what it is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,643 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Do you not think it's even more in the gift of the UK to make a similar statement? Yet, far from doing so, they seem bent on making more and more decisions to exacerbate the differences between GB and NI and so exacerbate the impact of the checks, and on finding more and more reasons to object to the Protocol that they demanded and that they negotiated and signed - reasons that never bothered them at the time, but that it is now politically convenient to pretend to care about.

    We look in vain for your outrage at the major part played by your own government in creating and inflaming these tensions. And, until we see it, the impact of your outrage against others who failed to avert them is greatly diluted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    oh absolutely I am outraged at how theresa and Boris have handled this. The only leaders I hold even more contempt for over the current situation are the DUP.

    The dup seem to have finally caught themselves on, though too late to save their bacon. We have always had some friends on the mainland who have spoken out and the government appears to be beginning to act, though I don’t understand their motives. Nationalists and republicans in the north and all parties in the south, without a single decenting voice, do not give a toss about the feelings of my community. That is noted and anger is growing.

    endless stuff circulating in our community about the dup mess. And while they got a tiny reprieve with the recent laudable words of Donaldson, patience is fast running out again. Here’s an example of the current stuff starting to circulate across the unionist community. This is one I got this morning depicting a photoshop of a famous mural

    Whether you or me are correct is irrelevant. I hear normally very moderate unionists, day and daily, quote the talking up of violence by roi to get what the wanted, and same unionists tacitly supporting loyalists to do the similar and to act on it if necessary. This is a new place for unionists I believe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Yeah I have a simple reason for believing it. They done it very publicly, with speeches, tv interviews and holding up pictures of IRA handy work, when they were trying to win stuff for Irish nationalism, but if your are correct then they are doing it now quietly behind closed doors. Why be embarrassed and why the different tactics this time?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,643 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    What strikes me about this, downcow, is your willingness to hold everybody to account except the people who are primarily responsible for this. You're "outraged at how Theresa and Boris have handled this" (although the GB:NI checks are entirely Boris's doing, and Teresa lost office rather than agree to such a thing), but that just gets one line. You move immediately to criticising the DUP and the RoI and your long-standing theme of complaining about what you imagine the Irish government to have done or not done; I don't see you making any demands at all of the British government, despite the fact that they are wholly responsible for this problem and they are in the best position to resolve it. To be honest, your "outrage" looks pretty tokenistic; you're not outraged enough to ask the British government to do anything, or to criticise them for failing to.

    And your last sentence is particularly telling. You hear "moderate unionists" object to (what they deem to be) the talking up of violence by the RoI and those same unionists "tacitly supporting" actual violence by loyalists. Those are not "moderate unionists", downcow; they're apologists for terrorism. That combination of views is sickening in its hypocrisy and cynicism, and the notion that the people this reflects badly on are the Irish government is just bizarre.

    What this reflects badly on is unionism; unionists are in a relationship of codependency on Westminster which is so dysfunctional that they will become terrorist apologists rather than ask the British government to show the most minimal concern for their own wishes and interests, because that would require them to confront the reality of how the British political establishment feels about them. They are loyal to Britain, but they are afraid to ask Britain to show any loyalty to them. It's pathetic.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,742 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Perfect example of Unionist victimhood. Accepts they were shafted by the British. Expected the the Brtish to get a win and so beat themums.

    And cannot see that since the British shafted them that Unionism's political representation is looking to blame anyone but themselves. And they are lying to do it, including the 'woe is me' misrepresentation of threatening violence to get gains, and now that there is a secret agenda on behalf of 'themuns'.

    Bitterness, paranoia and supremacy all rolled into one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭lurleen lumpkin


    'The Belfast Telegraph is middle ground'. Haha.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,643 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Because the first time round they were trying to influence the British government through mobilising public opinion; the second time round they were seeking to influence the EU. We don't need to resort to newspaper columns and interviews and calling repeated attention to the bleeding obvious to influence the Eu. Recall that we're members of the EU; we have effective ways of bringing our concerns to their attention and having them taken into account, and we don't have to break through the wall of ignorance and disdain with which the British political establishment insulates itself from anything Irish (north or south).

    The dominant opinion in Great Britain is that a hard border is needed to avoid a return to violence. In fact, as you and I both know, that is not the only issue; there are other weighty reasons why a hard border should be avoided. But "return to violence" is the only consideration that finds any traction in Britain, where the only thing about Ireland that interests them in even the smallest degree is the possibility of violence. If Varadkar pointed publicly to the (entirely real) risk of violence that the UK government's choices were creating, that was because only that would persuade the UK government to pay any attention to this issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Yes we do but who could blame us. For example unionism means so much to the DUP that they voted against the majority of people in Northern Ireland to take NI out of the EU, thereby damaging the union.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,742 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What is also missed was that Dublin's fear was not just republican violence...it was a fear of a return to conflict, which as we know takes two sides to engage in. He wasn't wrong about Loyalism trying to up the violence stakes and provoke reactions.



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