Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back a page or two to re-sync the thread and this will then show latest posts. Thanks, Mike.

The Irish protocol.

19394969899161

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    The middleground between the Newsletter and the Irish News? Ha! Telegraph is pretty reasonable unionism, the Irish News is similar for nationalism, but the Newsletter is incredibly far right unionist, it doesn't even have any GAA coverage or any nationalist columnists. Any Southerners who come up North should buy a few copies, it's mad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    A hard border would either lead to violence or it wouldn't. Unless an individual was actually planning to contribute to violence themselves they have no control over violence. But that does not mean they don't see the risk of it.


    A lot of people warned of violence should there be a hard border in Ireland. Former head of the PSNI, former PM Tony Blair but you pick out LV to make it into your usual sectarian arguments of "them v us". London politician warns of hard border violence, equals ignore. Dublin politician warns of hard border violence, equals they're are threatening violence to get what they want. That's the way the "them v us" game works?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    I find the raising of the spectre of sectarian murder of Catholics by unionists over checks at the ports profoundly stupid. What do unionists believe would happen if they started shooting innocent Catholics again? Unionism would become an even smaller minority with moderate pro-Union and others (the middle ground they're dependent on) completely abandoning any association with their 'Britishness'.

    Brexit was a massive mistake by Unionists and yet they still have not learned that attempting to unravel the stitching-together of Ireland will simply achieve the opposite.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Whatever about people in the UK, Brexit was certainly a mistake for unionism.

    Realistically if the union is to endure, some level of support from Catholics is a prerequisite. Appeasing them is necessary, trying to harden the border, fighting the Irish language, these things can’t work now. Surely some elements of unionism seem that, but is it too hard to deal with the misguided hardliners.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,235 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The problem with this whole situation is that those on the other side feel exactly the same way about a border within the UK as those who are opposed to a border on this island.

    Should we cave to the greater threat of violence? Should we do what is right? What actually is right? Given that the GFA gives autonomy to the people of Northern Ireland to decide their own future, should there be a plebiscite on where they want the hard border?



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,212 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    A land border affects the ROI as well as NI so it is not just the people of NI who should have a voice.

    The sea border was proposed by the UK government (after the DUP & ERG scuppered the previous proposal) and subsequently agreed with by the EU. Are the UK government not representing the people of NI?

    The problem is not that "on the other side feel exactly the same way about a border within the UK" but that those same people who now oppose the sea border had campaigned for the UK's exit without thinking of the ramifications, without concern for what the people of NI as whole wanted.

    The people of NI shouldn't be given a plebiscite on the border because one side will ever be happy with whatever is chosen by the majority. If some people of NI want the Irish Sea border removed then let them put forward workable alternatives and then we can see if the people would be happy with it. Personally, I would rather it was the way it had been a few years ago with effectively no borders. Maybe this is what the people of NI want - in which case should the UK rejoin the SM and CU to appease them?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭KildareP


    The problem is not that "on the other side feel exactly the same way about a border within the UK" but that those same people who now oppose the sea border had campaigned for the UK's exit without thinking of the ramifications, without concern for what the people of NI as whole wanted.

    This is pretty much the crux of it.

    Brexit is a UK decision and it's up to the UK to come up with the solutions to implement it while keeping within the agreements and commitments it has already voluntarily signed itself up to, even if those solutions or their implementation are not entirely what they'd like to happen.

    It is ridiculous to expect others to move to your tune so that you can arrive at a destination of your sole choosing that is 100% to your satisfaction, all the while shouting about "sovereignty" and "taking back control".

    However it seems that's exactly what the UK had banked on happening to "Get Brexit Done". As we've seen to date, anything other than the other side moving to the UK's tune is put down to belligerence, intransigence or more recently, bullying and strong-arming them into a deal done under duress, a deal that is being implemented far too stringently.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Anyone who proffers that a sea 'border' is in any way equivalent to a 500 km line dividing communities is either a liar, an idiot, or some combination of the two.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,235 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    "The people of NI shouldn't be given a plebiscite on the border because one side will never be happy with whatever is chosen by the majority."

    That is an extraordinary statement. If I were to say that the people of NI shouldn't be given a plebiscite on a united Ireland because one side will never be happy with whatever is chosen by the majority, I would be subject to severe criticism on here. Surely, if we in the GFA recognise the right of the people of Northern Ireland to freely choose their future, that also extends to this issue?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,235 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I haven't seen anyone proffer that opinion. Grandiose statements like that hardly add much to the debate. Saying that people should be free to choose between them does not mean that they are equivalent. Another red herring distraction.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,212 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    So you think they should be asked if they want an Irish Sea border or a hard border on the island???

    That is the extraordinary statement: not what I posted. Maybe they don't want either. The fact that the majority voted to remain would suggest that they don't want borders at all!



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    This is nonsense. Each border impacts people in different ways. The Irish border affects you big style. I get that. A border in the Irish Sea splits my country, my people, my family.

    the length of the border is irrelevant



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,742 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Unionists would be as militant about a poll as they are at the minute.

    They don't have the majority of the public with them on Brexit and the Protocol and as any poll campaign would be asking for alternative proposals to the Protocol they would be stumped. Their objections to it are abstract not physical. The physical manifestation of the Protocol is causing next to zero problems and business and agriculture (about the only sectors affected in a physical way) are happy or require adustments and flexibilities built into the Protocol.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,418 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Maybe the people as a whole, in NI should have a vote on it.

    Unfortunately neither the RoI, EU, nor even the the people in NI are in a position to do anything about it.

    But you won't see the UK offering this because 1)there is zero guaranty they'll get the desired result and 2) it sets the stage for other areas of the UK to seek special treatment.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,212 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Only this morning you posted...

    I am a unionist who did not vote for brexit. I have accepted it because the majority in the Union voted for it in a referendum. 

    Now if you accept Brexit, why then are you against what has been proposed, agreed upon, voted on in parliament and subsequently lauded in the media by your government? What part of Brexit made you change your mind so much that you now accept it despite your objection to the Irish Sea border?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,286 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    How does a border in the Irish sea split your country, Northern Ireland?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    It's a case of...feels before reals trying to claim that the NI protocol border in the ports is just as bad in its effects on people's lives as a new customs border on land. Either not being truthful, or just blindness/complete inability to empathise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭Snugbugrug28


    This will not end in tears, it will end in a customs union with the EU. Just need Bojo to vacate the seat to someone a bit more sensible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    You and downcow did suggest they are equivalent. You said "The problem with this whole situation is that those on the other side feel exactly the same way about a border within the UK as those who are opposed to a border on this island."

    Downcow (after your post) - "A border in the Irish Sea splits my country, my people, my family."

    Unrelated to above point...Downcow I think has this belief (alluded to in deleted comment about Daylight Saving time) that Ireland is going to reluctantly kowtow to the UK Brexit Govt. in the end anyway. It would refuse to implement EU Customs if they become needed at the border + will progessively distance itself from the EU and the other member states instead for sake of NI once Boris is Brave and twists and bends NI protocol to destruction. I think that may be a fantasy, you would not want to depend on it. 



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,235 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    In saying that people "feel" the same about both borders, I am not legitimising that, neither am I saying that they are equivalent. The kneejerk reaction to what people think is being said has to stop.

    What downcow says has no relevance to me.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    ^^Fair enough. Given Brexit, and how UK is going about it (unlikely to change any time soon) there will be a firming up of borders between EU (Ireland)/UK somewhere. That can't be wished away. Out of the 2 most likely places this can happen, 1 is objectively going to hurt more than the other. People should be honest about that fact as well as considering feelings.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,742 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You said 'people's feelings are the same', now you are saying they are not equivalent???

    Equivalent = equal in value, amount, function, meaning, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,235 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    People's feelings about them may be the same, but the issues themselves may not be equivalent. That nuance appears to have been lost on you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    They had one in the form of the Brexit vote. The majority in Northern Ireland wanted to remain in the EU and therefore had zero desire for a border anywhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,742 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    So they are not the same or equivalent then, because the issues are very different. An Irish Sea border is causing abstract angst in the main while a land border will cause physical, very real separation and FOM issues again on this island with the prospect of fortification being likely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    The Irish Sea is already a border and it doesn't divide towns, farms, families, parishes. Also take your emotional and abstract issues up with the DUP/Tories. There shouldn't be a border in Ireland at all, Unionists have had 100 years to make their little sectarian experiment work and have failed miserably and continue to.


    https://twitter.com/SheerinOfficial/status/1455553345863700486?s=20


    Unionism is in a death spiral, it can't reform itself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Are you trying not to understand.

    there was a referendum and the people of the union voted. They chose brexit. Most people in the Uk are democrats and accept the referendum. This is my position also. I have no desire to agitate against the will of our people in a referendum.

    none of the other stuff you mention was put to the people. Therefore it is all fair game to be resisted politically. Surely you don’t think people shouldn’t agitate against government decisions?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Haha. You took all that out of a post about Ireland following GMT. Remarkable



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Republicans have had 100 years to convince the people of ni that they’d be better in s United island. They have failed miserably



Advertisement