Abortion in America

Timberrrrrrrr · 03-11-2021 1:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110507#Comment_118110507

"the life that's born has every right to flourish and it's up to society to make sue it does"

But that's not what happens in America, there is little to no social care for poor people.

As for

"they're are a host of drugs that address that issue"

You mean abortion drugs? Because that's how 99% of abortions take place you know.

Timberrrrrrrr · 03-11-2021 1:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110586#Comment_118110586

No, being forced to give birth to a child you cannot afford to raise is an affliction of the poor.

Akrasia · 03-11-2021 1:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110460#Comment_118110460

Abortion, by definition, does not affect 'the life thats born'

Akrasia · 03-11-2021 1:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110414#Comment_118110414

Ok, lets give them a say. Lets ask the clump of cells or mindless embryo:

If you don't want us to abort you, wag your tail three times?

Give them a fair chance, ya know?

BTW, if abortion on demand is wrong, is there another kind of abortion that is less wrong? maybe forced abortion? Where women are given abortions they didn't ask for? or maybe the woman needs to buy a lottery ticket and if they're lucky, they might win an abortion?

Or is it only wrong if the man demands the abortion but the woman wants to keep it? good point, you're on to something there!

Manic Moran · 03-11-2021 1:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110389#Comment_118110389

I wish people will stop mistaking procedural issues for a 'decision on the merits'. Even the oral arguments here have nothing to do with the merits of abortion itself, as was the case for the 'non-action' by the court last month. Every single Justice here can strike down the Texas law on the basis of its basically rendering Constitutional protections irrelevant, whilst next month every Justice can declare abortion to be unlawful without being in any way contradictory or wavering on their original decision.

The only two Justices who did not openly display any skepticism of the Texas statute were Gorsuch and Alito, but they didn't exactly chime in with overwhelming support either.

I don't think anyone was really expecting SB8 was going to survive the Supreme Court. Not because of anything to do with abortion, but because allowing it to stand would remove the Court of its teeth. To their credit, whoever came up with the SB8 concept was a legal genius, and his/her logic may actually be correct, but correct or not, I don't see how the legal structure can realistically survive such a shock to its system and it must be shot down. Only a judge who will take to extremes 'follow the law as written and damn the consequences' would write an opinion allowing such a private enforcement structure to survive.

end of the road · 03-11-2021 2:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110429#Comment_118110429

this claim was previously debunked, hundreds of times.

its essentially one of the machine like scripted rants often spat out, but which are for the most part untrue as a whole.

03-11-2021 2:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840764#Comment_117840764

you can't be bothered because you can't think of a good response.

that post is absolutely ridiculous and you know it. easy for you to sit and say that especially considering it won't be yourself attending pre natal checks, dealing with morning sickness, pregnancy hormones, cravings, weight gain putting a strain on your back & to end this because it could go on for days the emotional and physical strain giving birth puts on a woman. there's also the potential she may die or require emergency cesarean which is major surgery.

but yeah the man should definitely have a say.

shocking as it might be we don't need a say in everything and those days are long gone. no man has any business in telling a woman or even being involved in the decision of having an abortion unless otherwise requested by the woman who may want it. I couldn't care less if it was their husband, dad or favourite uncle.

by your reasoning two people get married, wife gets pregnant she wants to terminate the husband won't consent she's stuck with a baby she doesn't want, I expect her to resent the husband for making her go through that torture (and despite not giving birth, what with being a man) I've been there for my partner on both occasions and she will describe it as hell.

it's all in all between conception and being fully healed after a good 11-12 months of absolute hell for most women and how dare you suggest that any man has a say - let alone the right to make the decision alongside them when they to experience none of the torment women need to endure for that 11 odd months.

I'm not even a woman and I am **** sick to death of hearing men talk about what's best for women or what they want. sorry, but **** what you want because you're just standing and watching. go push a human out of your dick hole and come talk to me about how you deserve a say then.

just get to **** with that bollocks.

03-11-2021 3:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110722#Comment_118110722

is your argument pro life? and if so is the foundation of that argument honest to god David Bowie?

Lord have mercy.

Shao Kahn · 03-11-2021 6:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110460#Comment_118110460

"What does that say about us?"

Hmmm, well let me think about that old chestnut for a brief moment.

Could it say, that perhaps we are already living on an overpopulated planet, with global resources currently stretched to breaking point? That we are destroying the environment with our grand attempts to help everyone "flourish"?

Or maybe that it's not the sole responsibility of society, to make sure every unplanned childbirth results in a "flourishing" human being. That perhaps there is some inherent personal responsibility in whether that grand project has a realistic chance of success. If not, then perhaps abortion is the logical and responsible action.

Maybe it says that some of us would like the individual to have some control over the picture they choose to paint in life. Rather than this archaic paint-by-numbers outdated world view, that individuals such as yourself like to propagate? Maybe, just maybe, it's that?

People seem very ignorant to the fact that even this current pandemic is quite likely one of the major end results of global population explosion. Disease is a natural byproduct of human overpopulation. (or any creature for that matter)

And one of the next most likely consequences is war. It is very likely we will see global wars over diminishing resources. This is pretty much inevitable according to many experts the way we are currently going as a species.

But then, all these people who you think should always be given a chance at life - regardless of the environment they are being brought into - will have a grand purpose. Just like many of our ancestors in history, we can hand them a rifle and send them off to another great important war!

Akrasia · 03-11-2021 8:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110722#Comment_118110722

You do realise that your post Is just as strong an argument against helping heroin addicts get off heroin as it is for making abortion illegal again.

Nail Rogers wouldn't have been born if his mother Wasn't heroin addict. Her life would have been different and she would not have conceived him in the first place, but even if he was born, his life would have been so different he could have ended up being an accountant or bicycle repair man...

Hotblack Desiato · 03-11-2021 11:46am

You can say the exact thing about rape.

"XYZ was conceived as a result of rape and wouldn't have been born if their mother had had an abortion." But they wouldn't have been born if not for the rape, either, so these people are really just cheerleading rapists.

None of us had a right to be conceived or to be born. All of us are only here because of the merest chance, if any of the other millions of sperm had made it instead we wouldn't be here. Oh and a huge proportion of pregnancies naturally never make it past the legal time limit for abortion here... and worldwide the vast vast majority of abortions happen during that period, too.

Then you have the hyperventilating morons going on about "murder", do we have funerals and death certs for the natural miscarriages? It's nonsense, even the 1861 legislation we had until a few years ago did not regard abortion as murder.

03-11-2021 12:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110721#Comment_118110721

Actually I said why I couldn't be bothered.. but then, that's the norm with responses like yours, you're in such a rush to burn the heretics that you fail to consider what they've said, as opposed to what you wanted them to say.

You make it sound like marriage is some kind of prison, with women being unable to negotiate, or even leave if they want to. If a woman wants an abortion and the man doesn't, then, it's no different from a dozen other serious arguments/negotiations that a couple might have.

This isn't about telling women what to do with their bodies. This is about representation for men, because they will be required to be involved once the choice to have the child is made. In many western countries there is the legal requirement for them to be involved, financially or otherwise... and it makes sense, to me at least, that they should have other involvement considering how much a birth or abortion would affect them.

As for all your **** this and **** that... It's a pretty good reason why I left the thread on page 2, because people on abortion threads often turn into little ****, with no respect for others opinions, assuming some kind of misplaced moral superiority, and with the belief that woman's biological rights trump everyone else's. I don't think it should. A difference of opinion.. Shocking as that sounds.

And no... I'm not back posting in the thread... I did find it interesting that you decided to quote a post of mine from a thread I hadn't contributed since early September, and chose something from page 2 out of a 7 page thread. Says a lot about your reasons for posting this piece of supposed outrage.

Faugheen · 03-11-2021 12:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118111624#Comment_118111624

Ah it didn’t take long for someone to start screaming ‘MURDER!’

You’d call a woman who became pregnant after being raped a murderer for deciding to terminate that pregnancy.

Timberrrrrrrr · 03-11-2021 12:28pm

What's worrying for America now is that one of the states (Mississippi?) Is going to directly challenge Roe v Wade in the coming weeks.

Faugheen · 03-11-2021 1:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118111986#Comment_118111986

So you highlighted what some anti-choice person would say when you claim to be pro-choice?

That’s not quite adding up, the fact you would take issue with my post instead of the post I was replying to.

Faugheen · 03-11-2021 1:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112090#Comment_118112090

You said you are in favour of abortion up to 12 weeks.

That makes you pro-choice. Get off the fence.

Faugheen · 03-11-2021 1:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112174#Comment_118112174

There is nothing wrong with either of those terms.

Anti-choice and pro-abortion are the antagonistic remarks.

Either way, your declaration of you being in favour of abortion up to a certain point makes you pro-choice, because you claim to be in favour of a woman making that choice in the first 12 weeks. There’s nothing tribalistic about that.

marieholmfan · 03-11-2021 1:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110944#Comment_118110944

Nile Rodgers mother was 14 when he was born. Don't feed the troll.

end of the road · 03-11-2021 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118111879#Comment_118111879

would he? that is interesting given he hasn't done this at all.

it's amazing how you can tell that people said things they never said, and tell people that they said things they never said.

it's like as if you are actually making things up and wanting to believe certain things were said or happened.

end of the road · 03-11-2021 4:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112066#Comment_118112066

the poster didn't do what you claim.

he took issue with your post because it's mostly baseless.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-11-2021 5:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118111795#Comment_118111795

This is about representation for men, because they will be required to be involved once the choice to have the child is made. In many western countries there is the legal requirement for them to be involved, financially or otherwise... and it makes sense, to me at least, that they should have other involvement considering how much a birth or abortion would affect them.

Should've thought of that before blowing their load, tbh.

To either try to coerce a woman into an abortion to evade child support or force her to go through a pregnancy and birth against her will are both extremely abhorrent.

It's her decision, and hers alone, get over it.

03-11-2021 5:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110721#Comment_118110721

Jesus. That's a lot to process.

Not a big fan of men I take it. We shouldn't have any input on abortion? I assume you don't think men should have any obligation to pay for a child they didn't want then too?

Or are you inconsistent as to a man's role in all this?

03-11-2021 5:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113820#Comment_118113820

There have been a variety of cases in the US where men's sperm has been taken from them without their consent. Even to the point of where contraceptives being used, but the sperm being collected by the woman. Or the sperm that has been submitted to sperm banks being taken by court order, in spite of the mans wants on the matter. Hell, there's been cases where the paternity of the child is shown to be that of another man (where the wife cheated), but the husband being required to provide for that child, the same as it would be for his own.

I always find it interesting the way people talk about women's rights to their body, but there's little consideration for a man's rights, especially when often society expects the man to step up to support both the woman and the child (even when the woman is fully capable of supporting them herself).

And no... I don't need to "get over it". It should be a discussion that adults have, and in a society where we are supposedly desiring equality for the genders, we should be seeking fair representation and involvement for both groups. Don't agree? Fine.. but I notice the only posters who tend to talk like you just did "get over it", are those advocating total rights for women in these matters.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-11-2021 7:49pm

Discuss away, but in the end it's not his body carrying the pregnancy and not his decision to continue to do so - or not.

Faugheen · 03-11-2021 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113915#Comment_118113915

I would love to read more about those cases. Have you any links?

03-11-2021 10:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114672#Comment_118114672

Not as such. I remember seeing news reports in the media... but here's what a quick search provided.

When a child is born to a mother who is married, the law in most states presumes that the husband is the father. Likewise, if a child is born and the mother later marries her partner, the law may presume that the husband is the father. In some states, there is an irrefutable presumption of this. In these states, if a child is born during the marriage, the husband is legally the father even if a DNA test later shows someone else is the father. In other states, this presumption can be overcome if the father actively rebuts this presumption. However, there is usually a very limited deadline by which a husband can refute paternity, such as two years after the child is born. If he does not rebut this presumption, he loses the right to later challenge it and can be obligated to support the child.

[https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/can-i-be-required-to-pay-child-support-if-the-child-isn-t-mine-46953] (Sorry, not sure how to embed links anymore)

Or if you do a search for Sperm Theft, Wiki has a decent page:

SF vs. TM (1996). S.F. appealed an order to pay child support, citing that he "did not knowingly and willfully participate in any sexual activity with the mother of the minor child." He had passed out intoxicated at a party in the home of a woman (T.M.) and was raped by her while he was unconscious. S.F. argued that being compelled to pay child support for a child conceived as a result of non-consensual intercourse deprived him of property rights and equal protection under the law. He produced expert testimony that it was possible for a male to get an erection and ejaculate while unconscious. While the court acknowledged that the mother's misconduct was "reprehensible" and a "misdemeanor", it nevertheless rejected his argument, stating that "the child is an innocent party... any wrongful conduct on the part of the mother should not alter the father's duty to provide support for the child." S.F. was ordered to pay $106.04 per month in child support, plus $8,960.64 in arrears.[35][36]

or

A New York court ordered Deon Francois to pay child support to his ex-wife Chaamel after she forged his signature and allegedly had it notarized with a stolen seal and used his frozen sperm sample to conceive a daughter through a fertility clinic. Francois sued the New York University clinic for $9 million, and insisted that they should pay the child support.[42]

It's really not difficult to find a wide variety of cases/articles on such things if you're interested in doing the actual search. I could have found articles from magazines/news sites themselves, but they tend to be dismissed out of hand (and when it comes to the US, rightly so, in most cases). Still, there are plenty of accounts by men who have apparently been tricked, or made to pay when they, themselves, weren't the father, or had their sperm stolen, in one form or another.

osarusan · 04-11-2021 10:55am

I'm going to ask the same question I've asked before to people who post that the (potential) father should have some 'say' or some 'input' when it comes to a (potential) mother deciding whether to have a baby or not...what form can that say or input actually take?

Do you advocate for giving the man the power to veto an abortion? Or force one?

And if not (because I doubt you do advocate for that), then what does having a say, or having input, actually mean?

04-11-2021 11:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116849#Comment_118116849

I haven't really thought that much about it, so these are just relatively vague suggestions.

But I think it should be taken into consideration from a legal standpoint.

I'll give an example of a friend of mine. He and his wife really wanted to have a kid of their own, she had been married previously and had a son from that marriage. So, for years they tried for the wife to become pregnant, and eventually, she did. Which was great for a few months, but she started to get depressed over the whole thing, and then, decided on her own, that she no longer wanted the child. She went and ended the pregnancy without speaking to her husband, and now they're getting divorced due to the betrayal that the husband felt. After all, in spite of all the problems involved, they had decided together to have the child, and then, she went ahead to abort the pregnancy without any consultation from him. Now, hes facing the likely court decision that he will be required to support the wife, and her son, after the divorce. The aborting of the child is not considered a particularly good reason for a divorce, so, he's being made to pay for instigating the divorce proceedings, even though, she is far wealthier than he is. He's still considered responsible for both.

I honestly don't know if a man should be able to veto an abortion. I think when a couple are not married, then the decision should rest entirely on the woman.. however with marriage comes a sharing of decision making, and the respect given to your partner. Yes, yes, others have raised the abusive nature of some marriages, but it's not as if we're still living in the 50s. Women in such positions have many ways to get free. I would say that within a marriage, an abortion should require the consent of both parties, and if a woman decides to go ahead regardless then, it should be counted against her, should either party decide to go for a divorce.

Not sure what else I can really say about the situation.

ohnonotgmail · 04-11-2021 11:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117035#Comment_118117035

has abuse of women suddenly stopped because it is no longer the 1950s? and as for the nonsense below it seems to me that you want to be living back in the 1950s. Abortion is a medical procedure. A woman should not require the consent of anybody else for a medical procedure. Do you think a husbands consent should be required if a woman opted for a hysterectomy?

I would say that within a marriage, an abortion should require the consent of both parties, and if a woman decides to go ahead regardless then, it should be counted against her, should either party decide to go for a divorce.

osarusan · 04-11-2021 11:57am

I don't have much disagreement with the idea that men can often expect to get treated poorly in divorce settlement and in terms of custody of children and so on. Courts in most parts of the world are skewed that way.

You mentioned in a marriage, if a woman unilaterally got an abortion, it should count against her in terms of divorce proceedings, but that's still a separate issue to the question of whether a (potential) father should have the power to veto/enforce an abortion, as it's more about creating consequences for a unilateral abortion, rather than creating powers to veto/enforce one.

I think it's just a biological inequality which can't ever really be balanced by legislation tbh. Ideas like the 'paper abortion' in Denmark and Sweden are attempts to introduce some kind of balance, and I'm not fundamentally opposed to that concept, but they don't go near the issue of power to veto/enforce an abortion, just with the issues surrounding financial/legal responsibility.

Abortion in America

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