Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Black History Month Ireland, why?

Options
1910121415

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    All I can do is give the source. Which is that book, not everything is online.

    Anyway there's more

    In 1920, Irish longshoremen in New York boycotted British shipping in support of Terence MacSwiney’s hunger strike. Their action spread and gained the support of black dock workers thanks to black political leader Marcus Garvey, who telegrammed Cork that MacSwiney had the support of “400,000,000 negroes'



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    All I can do is give the source. Which is that book, not everything is online.

    Anything credible is online, in one form or another. Just because it was in a book, doesn't make it to be true.

    I'll give a good example. I remember from history class that Hitler and his Nazi's burned down the Reichstag, the German parliamentary building. I've seen the same perspective written in a variety of books, but the truth is that he simply took advantage of the situation. Rather it was someone else entirely, who had no connection with Nazi's who did the deed. But for decades, people assumed it to be true, and used various authors as proof... even though, those authors were mistaken in their assumptions.

    If there had been Black people involved in the GPO per the original claim, you would be able to find a variety of references to them. It's not as if this isn't one of the biggest areas of focus for Irish history...

    In 1920, Irish longshoremen in New York boycotted British shipping in support of Terence MacSwiney’s hunger strike. Their action spread and gained the support of black dock workers thanks to black political leader Marcus Garvey, who telegrammed Cork that MacSwiney had the support of “400,000,000 negroes'

    In New York.

    err... Are you a little confused of the topic we're discussing? Nobody is going to be surprised at Black people being in New York. Oh, and you might want to drop two zeros' from that claim. 400 million? Even 40k would be stretching belief by a fair margin. What was the population of Black people in New York at that time? I suspect it was much less than 400k.

    1920 pop 5,620,048 black pop 152,467

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_New_York_City



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    It's about active black support for irish independence and part of our history too. Not only that Carribean workers were instrumental in smuggling weapons to the IRA at the time.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    History Ireland magazine.


    'As the Tan War in Ireland grew intense, Garvey continued his efforts to support the Irish side. 

    After meeting an Irish-American delegation in New York, he sent one of his lieutenants, Reverend Selkridge, to the New York docks, asking black longshoremen to join their Irish-American colleagues in boycotting British ships. This cemented Garvey’s relationship with Irish republican leaders. 

    The forerunner of the FBI also had their eyes on Marcus Garvey.

    Garvey developed a strong relationship with Éamon de Valera, the political leader on the Irish side. Garvey organised a joint meeting in 1920 where both men were due to speak. Garvey was advertised as “Provisional President of Africa” and de Valera as “Provisional President of Ireland”.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You've quoted (It doesn't appear that you're paraphrasing) from the magazine, but not provided a link to the page for the rest of us to read.

    Anyway... the piece you quoted doesn't reinforce any of your claims above. It just shows a connection existed.

    I'm done trying to pin you down (since you've skipped on to something else each time). Three times is more than enough.



  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭MarkEadie


    I've read about this too.

    Oh it's firmly hitting a nerve that black people may have had a hand in helping Irish people and the Irish cause of Independence!



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab



    Yes indeed a connection existed. An active one at that. In fact there were up to 50 non Irish in the GPO during the rising who took part.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Yes while not widely known it isn't a secret either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,554 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    The military pensions archives also provide a definitive answer to the question which has been the butt of many jokes over the generations - how many were in the GPO during Easter Week? The answer is 508.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/how-many-were-really-out-for-easter-rising-1916-1.2261362

    so, 10% were non-irish...?

    Minister for Defence Simon Coveney said the release of all the names associated with the Rising was a “very significant milestone in our understanding and historical appreciation of the identity of the men and women, from many different backgrounds, who lit the spark at Easter 1916 which a short time later led to the formation of a resurgent revolutionary movement that ultimately led to the War of Independence.”

    Was a relative of yours out in 1916? Check the Military Pensions Archive.

    theres a link there, there might be 50 in total out of 2,558 that have a non irish address listed, but most would have irish sounding names... came across an interesting one

    Casement, Roger 15 Nerotal, Wiesbaden (temporary address of subject's sister)Germany 1D475

    also noticed this one after a quick scan, so...

    Schweppe, Frederick 35 Mountjoy Square, Dublin Dublin Ireland 24SP1556

    Post edited by Quantum Erasure on


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 14,093 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Are you able to tell from names if they were black? Cuz I thought it was about the black people who helped the Irish, not just foreigners?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,554 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Me? no. but I'm just looking things up, linking anything i see after a quick google. I'm just looking for the truth, whatever that is...

    I don't think there were 50 'non-irish' involved in the rising on easter week 1916, much less 50 in the GPO. But I'd have no problem believing there was help given by Black leaders and Black societies/ unions in New York / the USA to the fight for independence in Ireland


    EDIT: if there were any people of African descent fighting for Irish independence, maybe that should be researched, and taught in any Black History Month in Ireland



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,171 ✭✭✭Rechuchote


    Haven't read through the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but Lord Edward FitzGerald was rescued after being wounded in a battle in America by an enslaved man called Tony Small. They remained close for the rest of FitzGerald's life, and FitzGerald's family supported Small (and he them) after his death.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    My problem is how the claims drifted

    1. as many as 20 Black people involved in the defense of the GPO (not sourced), and one Black British soldier (sourced).
    2. Then, the reference to New York.. who ignored the question as to why the reference was made, along with an absurd number of people involved.
    3. that black people were connected with the Irish cause, who were apparently Instrumental for the cause.

    I've no issue or disagreement that some Black people were involved in helping the Irish cause (Black people abroad). I'm sure that some people were very sympathetic, although, I also know that many Black people hated Irish people for their bigotry and racism.

    My problem is how the claims drifted along, adding more vagueness as each one came along to the point that the overall question had been shifted.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Oh it's firmly hitting a nerve that black people may have had a hand in helping Irish people and the Irish cause of Independence!

    Really? Any proof that such a thing is hitting a nerve? Personally, I don't like BS being promoted as historical fact.

    And before you jump in quoting the posts on this page, consider that what you said and what saabsaab said are very different things. I'd suggest taking a moment, because while its pretty obvious the differences to the rest of us, you might have missed them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Re the GPO 1916. The situation on those there until the end was fluid some started in the rising and left other came into the building until the British virtually sealed it off. I have giving my source and will give the exact quote from the book when it comes to hand. I never said that those involved were Irish or IV or CA but from the colonies. Simple faith in the omniscience of the internet regarding history is very misplaced. Much of what is in museams and libraries is not on available at all and I can't point people to something that isn't available.

    Re guns from 'black' sources I suggest reading the article 'very dangerous places' by Brian Hanley' in History Ireland the Irish Revolution 1919-21, A Global History page 25 to be exact.

    Also the longshoremen strike page 102 of the same issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    On another time scale DNA evidence suggests early irish were 'Black'

    Phil wasn't the first!



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    There are a hell of a lot of assumptions in that article.

    And how long did it take them to work out they have come by boat ?

    Or the belief there were 30,000 to 40,000 here?

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭WrenBoy


    Everyone was black if you go back far enough. Then we mutated to having paler skin as it was more advantageous in our new climate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Careful now, this can be interpreted as pale people being evolutionary further ahead...



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    Does this mean we'll see the African Irish turn pale as milk eventually? I'd assume so according to your reason.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭WrenBoy


    Over the span of millions of years maybe, its a long held theory as to how/why people developed pale skin.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Actually, that's debatable since the color of the skin for natives of the region where humanity spread from, consists of more than just Black skin. The simple truth is that, yes, skin color adapted to the environment and exposure, but it's also true that you can find a wide variety of shades when it comes to "Black", some of which are much closer to Spanish/Hispanic, or the Persian coloring which is more Gold than black.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You have given a single source that supposedly made the claim. If it was a valid claim, you would be able to provide a range of articles online to reinforce the claim.

    1916 is one of the cornerstones of Irish history. The amount of attention given to the period is staggering, and the idea that there were 10-20 Black people involved in the defense of the GPO without it being mentioned in any of the online references is ridiculous. I also have read a wide range of books over the years about 1916 and there was no mention of Black people being involved on the Irish side of things. Which is why I'm objecting now.

    As for whatever went on in the US, it's irrelevant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    I've noticed that some 'Black' people living here for years do go paler. There was a programme on TV where a white English woman brought in a poster of a black boxer from the 20's 30's. It was her Grandfather but she didn't look at all dark skinned.

    At these latitudes with a majority white population your skin colour is lost over a few generations. Probably has gone on for millennia.

    Some Irish on the West Coast have a very dark complection especially if there is some sunshine and would pass for North African. I know one who said he used it to get out of trouble abroad. Pretended to be brought up in Ireland but was born in the country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭donaghs


    That maybe so, but the newly imported US progressive race science of “wokeness”/“anti-racism” seems the have determined that all “white Irish” and “any other white background” (those are census terms) bear the inherent evils and guilt of “whiteness”.

    https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    What happenned in the US irrelevant to Irish Independence! Not at all. Why did De Valera go there otherwise. As for the forgotten dark skinned in the GPO it's time they were remembered.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭donaghs


    If someone said that to me in passing about the gPo, I’d say it was interesting, and make a mental note to read up on it. But since this is a discussion about “history”, you’ll be asked again and again, do you have any evidence? Beyond anecdotal.

    this is nothing to do with skin colour, if you said there were 20 Ford Model Ts in the GPO, i’d like to know why you thought this.

    the Marcus Garvey support is well documented , but I can’t source your quote, especially the “400,000,000” figure which is off the charts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    The 400,000,000 is a quote from Marcus Garvey. I assume that he was referring to the total world population of dark skinned people at the time? Can't have been the US.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's irrelevant to:

    First, the topic of Black history month in Ireland... [Unless it's a program about Republican support abroad]

    Second, your claim that there were Black people defending the GPO.

    As I said, I don't like revisionism. You made the claim about Irish history, and the presence of Black people. You have doubled down on this more than once, and yet, have failed to provide any proof that the rest of us can view, except some references to books, which apparently have no corresponding verification of it's information online.

    That's why the US is irrelevant, and why I think you're deflecting, trying to move away from your claim. Smoke and mirrors.



Advertisement