PUP fraud €183k, should the guilty be stripped of citizenship?

Some of the posts are reminiscent of vigilante 'law' during the Troubles. Those old enough to remember will recall news stories about criminals being given 48 hours 'to leave the Province.' Without getting into any of the rights and wrongs of setting up alternative legal 'systems' under a colonial power, giving someone 48 hours to feck off is not administering justice, it is abdicating the duty to adminsiter justice (applies to the State more than it does to vigilantes, of course, since vigilantes have excused themselves from standard legal mechanism and practices).

But sure luckit, I am a proud Pisces. And while we are a welcoming lot, we won't be taken for fools. If you want to be in our Piscean gang, and who could blame you, for we are an exceptional bunch, there are rules you must follow, especially if you were a Gemini before you joined us. 🙄😁

No evidence? What evidence would you accept exactly?

Perhaps you need to contact the Repatriation Division, INIS, department of justice, Burgh Quay, Dublin 2.

They might give you the figures you need.

You're right, in a way, but it's more that my attachment to BS generic metaphysical notions like 'Irish indentity' and 'Irishness' is extremely weak. Legal aspects and answer aside, What is Irish identity? (Answer: a BS metaphysical concept). Identity politics is for children, race baiters, race hustlers, patriots and other thicks with 'good' intentions.

I wonder if you realise that by dismissing the importance of National or cultural identity (Irishness), you're actually advocating identity politics, since that's been one of the primary arguments for multiculturalism and mass immigration. The social sciences have sought to show that national identity (for western nations) or any degree of nationalism as being a negative, which is why, supposedly, the idea of embracing a society of many cultures is a good thing. Diversity is our strength.

It's all connected to identity politics, because as the identity of the native group comes under attack, the identity of "minority" groups becomes more important, to justify the favorable terms extended to them.

I'd agree with you that our national identity has become a vague thing, with little relevance to modern society, but I'd point to the influence of American social science theory during last 30 years, which has been embraced by governments. There has been a social movement in the west to decrease the significance of Irish (or other western cultures).

I've had more in common with people from the arse end of Mexico and big cities in the U.S. than I have in common with many Irish people. Doesn't mean one place is better or worse. It means we are indivduals first and foremost.

Completely agree with you. I had extremely little in common with the Irish culture I grew up in, and always felt I had more in common with those I met abroad. We are individuals... but there is still a macro in addition to the micro. Many people do conform to national cultures or stereotypes. This can be seen in many countries around the world, especially those with a long history where cultural conformity was strong. ie,. Asia being a prime example, where the national culture can be seen in most people you meet, although individually, they'll display differences... however, place them into a group, and their individuality is submerged by the group consciousness, and what is considered acceptable patterns of behavior.

At the end of the day we vote with our feet. If a Somalian has spent more days with his or her feet on the ground in Ireland than I have over the past 20+ years (and they will have), then I have zero trouble saying that they are more familiar with everyday life in Ireland than I am and likely they have a stronger attachment to Ireland too.

Maybe, but I highly doubt it because they (Somalians) didn't grow up here, and have their own conditioning from living elsewhere. There's no foundational understanding of Irish culture, by appreciating our history as an Irish person. Instead, their understanding is based on being a Somalian looking from the outside in, and judging/adapting based on that perception. I lived over a decade in China, and I will never understand their culture the same way as a Chinese person, regardless of how good my language ability is, or the degree of exposure I have to that culture. My perception will always be influenced by my 3 decades plus of growing and living in Ireland first.

A Somalian living in Ireland will likely have a superficial understanding that is superior to mine, since they've been here longer over the last decade, but will they understand the underlying conditions? It's highly unlikely. Whereas someone from the UK, because of a similar culture, would likely be able to, although even there, there will be gaps in understanding.

I know a lot of Irish people who ended up in places where there were few or no other Irish people when they went there. The idea that everyone goes to America, Australia or Britain, and ends up hanging out with other Irish people is flawed. I've encountered them in Asia, Russia, Africa, and they're not pining away looking for other Irish people to join them... because they left to get away from the very "Irishness" that you dismissed existing earlier.

Although, the funny thing about living extensively abroad, is that invariably they become "more" distinctively "Irish" as a result. More appreciative of Ireland both as a nation, and the associated culture. TBH the only people I tend to meet who are overly critical of Ireland are those who stayed in Ireland, or those who are newly established abroad.

Your attachment to metaphysical, non-empirical categories such as 'Irishness' is no concern of mine.

However, you are stretching what I said to suit your point. To make it clear for you, because your attachment is causing you to see prejudice where there is none:

a) I have had more in common with individuals from the arse end of Mexico than I have had with many Irish people.

AND (this is the part your prejudice and attachments blinds you to, because you are thinking in either/or categories)

b) I have had more in common with individuals from the arse end of Mexico than I had with many other individuals from the arse end of Mexico.

It's not a pro- or anti-Irish position. To be pro- or anti-Irish as if all Irish fit into some banal categories is ridiculous metaphysical BS. (Again, it's your attachment to grandiose notions of 'Irishness' and 'identity' that blinds you to this.)

Yes, I don't get the overly critical crew either. And yes, for all its flaws, by global standards Ireland is an oasis of sanity, underappreciated by its own.

Apologies if my rhetoric offended you. However, by prejudice I meant that you are placing value on a thing (in this case the empty concept of some homogenous identity among the Irish diaspora) and evaluating other statements accordingly. If the grounds of your values are bogus, your values are bogus too.

One person claiming that metaphysical categories are real and the other claiming that they are not real that they are in fact BS and that it is foolish to place value on them is not a difference of opinion, it is a difference of mental practice --one relies on the metaphysical and the other relies on the empirical. Concepts like Irishness require so many exemptions, exceptions, hand waving, assumptions, and generalizations that they amouint to little more than meaningless unempirical drivel.

Anyway, we are a bit OT discussing 'identity' and 'culture' on a thread about a legal question.

haha.. I wouldn't go that far. An Oasis of sanity? Most people think we're nuts to put up with our Political groups, but being Irish is also recognising that some things never change. But yeah, Ireland is generally a damn fine society/nation when you compare it to other societies around the world.