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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #10652
    ujjjjjjjjj
    Registered Users Posts: 922 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121014#Comment_118121014

    Leinster are far ahead of the other provinces. (Entirely understandable due to the quality coming from the private schools primarily in Dublin). In terms of player development as far as I can make out if you leave Leinster for another province the chances of you making the Irish team are greatly reduced - quite simply because there 2 or 3 Leinster guys behind you coming into the Leinster system in your position who will play at a higher level with better coaching and more likely to progress quickly. It's not rocket science. Jordi Murphy a classic example.



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    #10653
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121626#Comment_118121626

    Just to supplement your point that Conan was selected over Jordi Murphy for RWC, it was Jordi that got called up when Conan went home.

    https://www.irishrugby.ie/2019/09/29/jordi-murphy-to-replace-jack-conan-in-ireland-squad/amp/



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    #10654
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,051 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121948#Comment_118121948

    >Yeah Conan was in the initial RWC squad, but Murphy wasn’t drafted in even after Conan was injured.


    Yes he was. He started against Russia and got injured himself.



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    #10655
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,748 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Well that just shows up both my point and my memory. I’ll shut up now so.



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    #10656
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121920#Comment_118121920

    Are you seriously still going on as if you were right, lad, cop on to yourself.

    Stander was available, but the Lions didn’t select him, they did select Conan. Where you read or inferred that it was the other way around, can you produce any evidence at all or was it all in your dreams?

    The Ireland squad for the summer series was selected to give new players the most caps possible, Stander wasn’t going to be called up anyway once it was clear he wouldn’t be continuing as an Irish international, the purpose of the summer series was to rest the key players and use the wider squad without the Lions players.



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    #10657
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,552 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121948#Comment_118121948

    Others mentioned the Jordi point, but that's just getting bogged down in the weeds in any case.

    With regards Beirne, to be fair to him, he's definitely pushed on to another level we'd never seen from him before in the last season.

    But if there's been no success stories of guys moving from Leinster, that's as much telling us that there's an even bigger back-log at Leinster than we may have thought, as anything else. If the guys who move can't get past the guys who replace them, maybe even more interprovincial moves are necessary, for the betterment of Ireland?



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    #10658
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,932 ✭✭✭TRC10


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121948#Comment_118121948

    With so few cases of moves to other provinces leading to genuine success at national level, the IRFU are going to find it harder to sell moves to players now. We need to see more cases of players really benefiting at national level from moves.

    It's ironic because the most successful inter-provincial move was one who was never actually picked for Ireland...Cooney to Ulster. That was a roaring success, he was in the top 2 scrum halves in Europe for a couple of years and nominated for EPOTY.

    He could have been a success story to sell to players, but he was shunned by the national setup for whatever reason and they pick a journey man NZ reject instead. So it isn't difficult to see why some people become disenfranchised with the Irish rugby team.

    So the IRFU really do themselves no favours. When a move actually works, they don't pick the guy.



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    #10659
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,466 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Without getting into the whole Cooney selection saga, he has eleven caps.


    Did he earn any while playing anywhere other than Ulster?


    Seems like we only judge these things "a success" if someone becomes a 60 cap regular. If Cooney earned eleven caps that he wouldn't have got without moving, it was a success for him.



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    #10660
    ionadnapokot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    I've got it. Split Leinster in two!



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    #10661
    TRC10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,932 ✭✭✭TRC10


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122183#Comment_118122183

    Cooney was capped first in summer 2017, before he moved, so he may well have got more if he stayed

    He got 1 start for Ireland in a second string XV against the USA. There's no way anyone can argue he was given the chance his form warranted or that the guys picked ahead of him like JGP deserved to be there more.

    During his EPOTY nomination season he was given 3 cameo appearances and than cast out for JGP.



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    #10662
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,335 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122132#Comment_118122132

    Ah in fairness the irfu don’t pick the team.



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    #10663
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,552 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122183#Comment_118122183

    Felix Jones is another who I think would've had more caps but for his injury issues, forcing him to retire at 29. He was then given an opportunity on the coaching staff. It didn't work out, but his work relationship with Rassie now means he has a RWC medal in his pocket. By any measure, that's got to be considered a success.

    Ian Keatley another; he didn't have a storied international career, but he had a good career with Munster, still lives in Limerick and is part of the development coaching ticket now, I believe.

    The opportunities on the coaching side of things may be an added incentive for some players.



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    #10664
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,866 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122183#Comment_118122183

    Agreed, Cooney was a great success for interpro transfers.

    Connacht had two decent SHs, Ulster had none. By moving on, he also gave room for Blade to get game time at Connacht.

    He then got called up for;

    • Six Nations 2018
    • Summer tour to Australia 2018
    • November tests 2018
    • Six Nations 2019
    • RWC 2019 training squad
    • Six Nations 2020

    That Cooney couldn't go the last mile and get into the team is either on him or on Schmidt/Farrell, but the actual transfer was a great success.



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    #10665
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,590 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121022#Comment_118121022

    Munster, at least, is by European standards, a very wealthy region. Its behind Dublin but well ahead of a lot of the regions where successful teams come from in England and France. If you look at where money is generated in Ireland: https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/receipts/net-receipts-by-county.pdf there is plenty sloshing around in the province compared to Connacht and Leinster Counties not named Dublin. The Cork Limerick split is still a massive issue, the team was meant to be concentrated in Limerick however the player base has shifted to Cork City and to a lesser extent West Cork over the last 5 years, the former also being the dominant commercial and population base of the province. The disconnected nature of the team is an almost unique challenge in global sporting terms and is a really tough issue to manage. Far more nebulously, I still think there is identity issues in the club. At the turn of professionalism, Munster embraced a rough and tumble bunch of tough club rugby lads giving it a lash image, which played as a brilliant contrast to the flash private school city boys of Leinster throughout the rugby boom during the Celtic Tiger. The issue for Munster is that throughout the professional era the team has always been made up of a core of schools players, private schools in Cork City and long established rugby schools in Limerick City. The club rugby graduates were always a supplement rather than a core of the team. While the player base has moved more and more to schools the team has continued to hark back to reigniting club rugby Munster, which never existed in the pro era and failed to expand the schools game in any way.

    But then again Munster are the 6th most successful team in the history of European Rugby. They have made 3 European Semi Finals in the last 5 years and got eliminated by the eventual winners in the knockout round last year.



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    #10666
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,539 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121158#Comment_118121158

    I think this is more than likely the case. Everyone's losing their minds when it actually looks like Connacht, Ulster & Munster have quite a few players ready to contribute who will likely take the spots of some of the Leinster players soon



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    #10667
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,476 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    the bookies have 17 points between these two teams and i think thats about 10 points too wide.

    there was 8 points separating both teams back in july and i think that, although ireland are stronger on paper, japan certainly are too.

    their biggest ball carrying threat, himeno, was down to play in july, but had to pull out due to injury just beforehand.

    This Japanese team now is better, with himeno starting, nagare starting at 9 and retaining most of the back line which caused the damage in the last game.

    They are essentially playing 5 back rows from 4 - 8, so expect the ball to be moved away from contact constantly, with quick ruck time the priority.

    These lads were only 4 points off australia going into the 79th minute in the last game.

    im expecting a good tight close game with all the exciting rugby coming from japan, with ireland having to revert to a power game up front to drag a victory by 7



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    #10668
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,816 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Part of the "problem" is just clearly down to numbers. The population of Leinster dwarfs the other 3 provinces and therefore it's obvious that there will be a larger amount of rugby players in Leinster as opposed to the other provinces.

    The schools system in Leinster is enviable to anywhere else but it's up to the other provinces to try to emulate this as best they can.

    Ulster really need to get the finger out in particular. When I played in school there were between 16 to 20 schools we played every year. The IRFU and Ulster rugby need to be heavily involved in promoting and supporting these schools to get the best lads through and into the pro set up.



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    #10669
    Lost Ormond
    Registered Users Posts: 3,916 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122391#Comment_118122391

    Thats true to a large extent and to be expected that Limerick and Cork dominated but the numbers from beyond the cities was always relatively high though they appeared in lists as Limerick/Cork club players but were in fact from junior clubs across the province. The club rugby graduates or junior rugby graduates are high enough.

    Saying the club rugby Munster didnt exist isnt true and the schools game has expanded slowly yes but Leinsters hasnt expanded hugely at top level either tbf.



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    #10670
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,051 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122642#Comment_118122642

    The population of Leinster does not really dwarf Ulster tbf, ~2.6m vs ~2.1m.


    Then it's over twice the population of Munster and about five times the population of Connacht.



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    #10671
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,552 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122691#Comment_118122691

    I'd say the playing population does tho, no? I know the IRFU release registered player stats, but I'm not sure they break it down by Province?



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    #10672
    Lost Ormond
    Registered Users Posts: 3,916 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122710#Comment_118122710

    Annual report from IRFU breaks down registered players by province. tho the last report or two dont have the figures



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    #10673
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,476 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122642#Comment_118122642

    i dont buy this population argument. i accept that its part of the issue, but i dont see it as significant at all.

    Kilkenny County has a population equivalent to Limerick city, yet they are able to churn out top quality hurlers ever generation. This is, in no small way, down to their history, and in a more significant way, their systems and buy in from the clubs when it comes to coaching and opportunities. I could also point to new zealand and their population as a metric towards their rugby dominance, but i accept they have a much deeper connection with rugby than we have here.

    like i said previously, every province gets the same raw product (the novice player). its up to the provinces to develop their systems to get these players to the best version they can be at professional level.

    if the case is they need to separate the wheat from the chaff at an earlier level and put the resources into getting smaller groups to higher levels so be it. I certainly dont think any province should be trying to mirror the leinster system, because the starting point isnt the same.



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    #10674
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,552 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122733#Comment_118122733

    I'm not sure they are broken down by Province tho, are they? I had a brief look and found some numbers broken down by schools, club, senior, men, women etc. but nothing my Province.

    I don't expect it'd tell us anything we don't already know anyways.



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    #10675
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,552 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122756#Comment_118122756

    Kilkenny have the systems and the club buy-in because they have history and the interest, and vice-versa; it all goes pretty much hand-in-hand. I would say they almost certainly don't have a playing population that significantly trumps any single major competitor tho. In any case, these things are pretty nebulous, moreso than any one singular factor like population.

    With regards NZ, others (indeed, yourself) will have a better understanding than me, but don't players there have a fairly fluid relationship with the Super Rugby clubs? Wouldn't you have a number of their top stars ending up representing a number of clubs? (Which we don't really have here). If so, then presumably that's even more of an argument for players moving provinces?



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    #10676
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,476 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123013#Comment_118123013

    in regards to NZ, obviously im not expert as im not a kiwi, but i do follow NZ rugby. Their super rugby system isnt exactly provincial like we have here. Our provinces are historical, whereas their super rugby clubs are manufactured to include clubs and areas.

    a better comparison to our provincial system would be NZs NPC level (otherwise known as mitre 10)

    in this system players play for their local "provinces" to which they have a familial / geographic tie to. For example Michal Bent and Taranaki.

    Michael is from Hawera and Taraneki would be his geographic NPC team, playing out of new plymouth on the north island.

    Michael played super rugby for the Hurricanes however, who wouldn't be part of Taranekis franchise area (that would be the chiefs)

    Aaron smith is a highlander, based down south in Dunedin, but his NPC club is Manawatu, who are based on the north island.

    so player movement from their NPC club, to a super rugby franchise not under their clubs catchment would be very common, as there is no real historical connection to the franchise (super rugby franchises are really only in existence for 23 years)

    But their tie to the NPC club is a lot stronger.


    Ireland have a ready made compatriot system that could emulate this, in the AIL, but its been left to rot since the dawn of professionalism ... one of the most significant shames of the IRFU in my opinion, as they do an awful lot of good things.



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    #10677
    Lost Ormond
    Registered Users Posts: 3,916 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123138#Comment_118123138

    We could have a compatriot system but not exactly through AIL. AIL arent near what NPC is though is it?

    NPC is a layer NZ has that we dont. NPC would be like if we had a semi pro/pro inter county competition in between the clubs and the provinces/super rugby sides or do i have it arse ways?

    AIL has been to some form left to rot but thats on everyone. How many here regular rugby fans who comment daily on the sport, watch a lot of the sport attend club games be it AIL or junior rugby on even a semi regular basis?



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    #10678
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120108#Comment_118120108

    ok i can't help you if you choose to ignore evidence.

    getting past the QF is literally written in their long term plans. both can be doable depsite what you say.

    we are getting thumped regardless. thus we will save face and give them a shot at redemption with the same team against Argentina.

    its questionable that this is our strongest team.

    it would sicken me. but it could be necessary as we're repeating the same mistakes yet again. we need a huge wakeup call here. AF is not the man to lead Ireland.



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    #10679
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122377#Comment_118122377

    its 100 per cent on SChmidt and Farrell.

    Just another long line of nonsensical decisions that make zero sense.



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    #10680
    Lsdrugbyfan
    Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭Lsdrugbyfan


    Auckland has a population of approximately 1.45m people, while Canterbury has a population of c.650k. If population and economics were the only thing that won you championships, Auckland would have 10 Super Rugby titles and Canterbury would have 3. It's the other way around. 

    Munster weren't complaining about the posh boys up in dublin in the 2000's, but now they've fallen behind and blew their advantage in Limerick, the excuses are out in full voice.



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    #10681
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,590 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122679#Comment_118122679

    Look back to the first Heineken Cup match day squad. 12 of the 16 home developed players came through a traditional rugby school. Munster have always been a team who have primarily relied on the school system in the Pro era.



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