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Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,627 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Access to mother and baby homes redress scheme to be widened (irishtimes.com)

    Access to mother and baby homes redress scheme to be widened

    Women who stayed less than six months and those resident after 1974 set to be includedAccess to mother and baby homes redress scheme to be widened

    Women who stayed less than six months and those resident after 1974 set to be included

    Although the Government has indicated it will seek a significant financial contribution from Catholic and Church of Ireland bodies that were involved in running homes, there will be no formal talks with church figures until the scheme is approved by the Cabinet.

    Again this was leaked rather than officially announced.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,627 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Good article on Catherine Corless. How many years will it take to bury those babies with some dignity.

    Catherine Corless Showed The State It Couldn't Just Fob Us Off (evoke.ie)

    Catherine Corless showed the State it couldn’t just fob us off

    ‘All I remember is, they never spoke, they were terrified looking, they were never asked anything, they shuffled in to their own seats and they were just cold looking, and just terrified.’

    Older people Catherine has spoken to remember the children also arrived into class later than other pupils, and left earlier, and the clear conclusion is that this was to prevent them making friends, and perhaps revealing details of the conditions they lived in.

    A staggering 798 children died in Tuam, but burial records existed for only two of them.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,627 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Dr Maeve O'Rourke is using her experience researching Ireland's mother and baby homes and the commission/report to ensure that Northern Ireland does it right.

    Mother-and-baby homes: Panel backs public inquiry - BBC News

    The Truth Recovery Design Panel recommends:

    • Urgent appointment of a non-statutory independent panel of experts, including those with personal experience
    • Legislation to appoint a statutory public inquiry
    • New legislation to secure access to records for survivors and their families
    • Immediate redress payments from the beginning of the investigation

    The panel, along with victims and survivors, called on "all state, religious and other institutions, agencies, organisations and individuals complicit in the processes of institutionalisation and forced labour, family separation and adoption to act without delay in issuing unqualified apologies".

    They said that they should clearly state their role, "accept responsibility for harms done; demonstrate sincerity in their apology; and demonstrate the safeguards now in place to ensure there will be no repetition of the inhumanity and suffering to which they contributed".

    Dr O'Rourke said that any future investigation must be accessible to everyone involved, in particular those with disabilities.

    "The key priorities raised by survivors and the relatives are that funding and resources should be sufficient to ensure effective and sustainable implementation of all the panel's recommendations; that the human rights of survivors and relatives are central to the recommendations' implementation; that all of the measures recommended must ensure full access for victims, survivors and relatives of the deceased to information," she said.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    It looks like FF/FG are hoping the remaining victims will die off. No justice when it's inconvenient



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,865 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    It's the RCC causing and coordinating all of this. FF/FG are just tools.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Given the revelations here, in Canada, and now France, why are we not talking of shutting down this social terrorist organisation?

    Post edited by cnocbui on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,627 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Catherine Corless honoured by Red Cross for her work on Tuam babies (irishtimes.com)

    Catherine Corless honoured by Red Cross for her work on Tuam babies

    Historian’s work is the subject of a documentary to be broadcast this week

    The discovery attracted international attention and will be the subject of a documentary on ITV broadcast on Monday, The Missing Children, which will also be broadcast on RTÉ on Tuesday night.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,877 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Well deserved award, she was on rte radio recently talking about her book.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,877 ✭✭✭mrslancaster



    wrong thread

    Post edited by mrslancaster on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,517 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Will the religious staff of these homes be chased until their deaths like those working in the Nazi death camps? If not why bother doing any additional investigations whatsover?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,865 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Is there a statute of limitations on murder in Ireland?



  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Shao Kahn


    Or at the very least, confiscate most of their property and wealth and give it all back to the people of Ireland. (particularly the victims of these crimes against humanity)

    I can never understand why the RCC was still allowed to own so much land and nice big old houses etc, after all these scandals started coming out. They never got these things from the Vatican in Rome. It was the people of Ireland, many of them very poor themselves, who reached into their pockets and built up the power and wealth of these institutions!

    All of these religious institutions have collective blood on their hands. And there should be financial reparations paid for these crimes. "Sorry, that's our land. You can't build your children's hospital." Fcuk off!

    "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives, and it puts itself into our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,865 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    In the recent French Catholic church child sexual abuse scandal - another example of scratch the RCC's surface and the festering boil of horrid behavior pops - https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118137080/#Comment_118137080 - the commission that did the investigation has urged the church to pay reparations using the proceeds from sales of Church assets rather than asking parishioners for extra donations. Imagine if we could do the same in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 318 ✭✭RavenBea17b


    As vile as the RCC in the role of mother and baby homes, the Irish people were just as complicit. To deny this is to insult the women and wee babies and children again. My grandmother told me often that girls lived in fear of being sent into a home - and not just for fear of falling pregnant.

    Families could send a girl to the home on the say of father or poor abandoned wife at whim - or a jealous neighbour or farmer spreading lies and gossip, the local priest would get involved. How many times - until recent history did this happen. The local guard and priest acted as judge and for want of a better term executioner. If someone felt sorry for the girls and children, but if they tried to help in anyway, they were frowned upon by the others.

    Girls could be sent to the homes, because they were orphaned, or abused and fear of becoming morally corrupt. Unless someone signed you out of these homes you could be there for many years in some cases.

    A family good name was above everything else. The power the church, teachers and guards had over every day life was known and recognised, yet nothing in real terms changed until recently. How many can recall as school children, especially in a more rural background having to bring coal/turf to a school, yet if you couldn't, then singled out. Church donations weekly etc. Teachers severely beating children - usually poorer or from a background that was deemed they could get away with it. Whoa betide a farmers daughter or son getting a belt or strap that would mark them as they had someone with 'local standing' respected to query. If a child didn't have someone, well .......

    This is what I mean by Irish society of the time was complicit. The school worked in tandem with the church and vice versa.

    I know of one occasion in my own mother time at school in early 50's (rural Ireland), where a child was given such a such a clout (my mothers words), picked up by the hair and slapped across the head. This child was a particular scapegoat by account. When they got home, the mother noticed the mark on the face, but was too frightened to speak to the teacher. It was an older lady went to the teacher and commented to the priest.

    In no certain terms was she made aware that should she complain any further then her name would be called in the church.....Frightened, that is what they were. She knew that she would not win. The boy suffered from bad headaches after that and eventually left school. Sometime later, that master left the school.

    The mother and baby homes were discussed in the Dail on the 50's and 60's, the care and condition of the women and children.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,865 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Umm... we're talking about the Tuam scandal here. Before the RCC apologists pile on, do tell us what you think about the Tuam scandal, the government's abject failure to compensate victims, the poorly done report, and the lack of progress on the coroner's investigation into the deaths? FWIW we're talking about the Tuam M&B home run by the Bon Secours religious order of the RCC. Hope that helps.

    Thanks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,627 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    The Missing Children is on at 10:15pm tonight on RTE 1

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The thread is about Mother and Baby homes, not just Tuam.

    RavenBea has said what a lot of us think. There were more to blame than the Church. Families and the society of the time also played a huge part.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,089 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    And especially the gutless men, who raped and impregnated young woman, and then ran away.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No, no, no. They were all immaculate conceptions.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 318 ✭✭RavenBea17b


    I understood that this thread was about the homes in general - not just Tuam. Compensation - primarily is OWN IT. OWN and take responsibly. Apologies have been given, rightly so. But paperwork that was held in local county offices, that was sat gathering dust, that is not available openly is very sad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,627 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    For the 1000th time, nobody has denied that. Society was utterly warped at the time for many reasons. Why haven't you set up a thread to explore how/why families/society sent their children to these awful homes? You could create a thread on why babies born to unmarried parents were treated as "an inferior sub-species" as Enda Kenny put it. Or why the fathers weren't equally persecuted by the church/society? Is your argument somehow that 2 wrongs make a right or are you trying to dilute the blame to help validate your unquestioning allegiance?

    Michael Martin said: 'We had a completely warped attitude to sexuality and intimacy and young mothers and their sons and daughters were forced to pay a terrible price for that dysfunction. As a society we embraced judgementalism, moral certainty, a perverse religious morality and control which was so damaging.'

    But this thread is about the mother and baby homes and what happened to unfortunate women and their children in these homes (i.e. the forced/illegal adoptions for money, the mass graves, the cruelty & abuse, the horrendous mortality rates, the vaccine trials, the dying rooms, the destruction and forgery of records, the refusal to provide data to survivors, the non-cooperation of religious orders into investigations etc).

    Post edited by Cluedo Monopoly on

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    It's possible that some parents believed they were doing the right thing for daughters pregnant outside marriage when they sent them to the mother-and-baby homes because they didn't believe their daughters would be able to cope with single motherhood.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    The only thing to blame for the church's atrocities is the church and it's members that facilitated said atrocities.

    You want to deflect blame from the church for its atrocities onto society, yet refuse to acknowledge the influence and control that the church had over that society. why is that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,627 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Whatever the reason, it doesn't excuse the treatment within the homes. The horrors.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    You chime in with this every so often. Yet you won't hold the governments of the time nor Garda, Doctors etc. to account. You rush in to deflect to families. They were told the church was the leader in all that was heavenly and moral. So when they take an action, supported by the authorities, you want to blame the families for not stabbing the Doctor, Garda, Priest or politician? You want to accuse families of knowingly sending their children off to be abused for decades and their child sold from under them? Do you think the families knew what we only found out about in the last decades? We know the church and state authorities knew. Likely all the families knew was the church and state was going to look after their immoral, as per the church, problem.

    How about blame the church and state for five minutes before blaming the survivors.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭Mikefitzs


    "Families and the society"? Families and the society were besieged by the church's power, everyone was afraid of the church, afraid they'd go to hell, afraid God wouldn't love them. They handed over every last penny to the church for salvation. The church is 100% to blame for the atrocities of the church. The church groomed society and should be held accountable. Thankfully they were too stupid to see what'd happen when they educated us beyond reading and writing.

    Just a passenger



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    It's completely plausible that in doing what the church and state said, families thought they were doing right.

    We did not know about the monstrous and criminal behaviour of the animals in the church supported by the authorities until 20 or 30 years ago. And even now FF/FG/Church are covering it up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    I doubt the parents of young unmarried mothers believed they'd be committing a sin by refusing to send their daughters to these institutions.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭Mikefitzs


    100% agree. You can't blame a society that was groomed by fear. Total BS to even suggest it. 100% blame lies at the church's door and they should be held accountable by stripping them of their assets.

    Just a passenger



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Upcoming legislation will facilitate adopted people's right to access information about their births. The cat's out of the bag. So what is there left to hide?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    They spent decades denying access and putting up roadblocks. The most recent whitewash and slow to act nature of FF/FG speaks volumes. If it wasn't for heroic private individuals we'd still be in the dark.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,089 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Yet some families didn't send their daughters, eg Peggy McCarthy (ref) - and I know others by name, too, who stood by their abused children.

    How come some families managed, and others didn't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭Mikefitzs


    Obviously they didn't fear the church as much as the church would have liked. Any further questions on this should be directed at your local bishop.

    Just a passenger



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭political analyst


    But what is there left to whitewash?! The cruelty done to unmarried mothers and their children has been well-documented by the media for the past two or three decades. Roderic O'Gorman made a mess of the way in which he communicated the planned change in the law. I said the cat was out of the bag. Therefore, I wasn't referring to the denial that had been taking place for decades before the Church's hegemony collapsed.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭CutieD


    I feel sick watching this. Its shocking. **** hell. Catherine Corless did fantastic work uncovering all this.

    Babies and children dumped into septic tanks.

    Babies sold like little puppies for money.



  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭CutieD


    Philomena Lee highlighted the selling of babies from homes before this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭Mikefitzs


    Unless you’ve been affected directly by any of this I doubt you’d understand it very well and I appreciate that you’re entitled to your opinion but that opinion is of little value to those of us that are directly affected.

    Just a passenger



  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭CutieD


    Shocking



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,627 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Superb documentary last night. Tough to watch but very well made.

    If you missed it...

    The Missing Children - RTÉ Player (rte.ie)

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,527 ✭✭✭tobefrank321


    I didn't watch the entire documentary, but the parts I watched were beyond grim. Malnourished children, virtually starving to death, and I've no doubt malnourishment was behind a lot of the deaths.

    The place sounded like a concentration camp, its hard to find any other way to describe it.

    Evil masquerading as "religion" once again.

    Feels like you could get away with anything in this country if you had "religious" in the title of your organisation up to and including running a concentration type operation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭CutieD


    The mother and baby home in Tuam was run by the Bon Secours nuns. Why did the Bon Secours offer to pay 2.5 million towards the excavation site in Tuam. By offering that sum they acknowledge that they played a part in the home. They should be offering to pay the full costs for the excavation site.


    They were able to build profits by accepting money for the care of young and single mothers and their babies but neglected them in order to save money and sold babies illegally for profit or donations. That's wrong. Those nuns and the Bon Secours organisation profited from abusing young and single mothers and their babies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    And there are still people who wonder how someone can have a moral compass without religious beliefs.

    I'd like to propose the next constitutional referendum should be about removing any and all references to the church and it's 'special place'.

    Rather embarrasing to have an institution of sexual predators and kiddie fiddlers having their role protected in your constitution.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,523 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    The homes had 'dying rooms', where babies were left unattended until they died. There's compassion for you.....

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,592 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The referendum on removing the special position of the RCC from the constitution was in the 60s and passed.

    Empty gesture as they continued to be listened to as if they had such s role for decades after



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,542 ✭✭✭RocketRaccoon


    I'm in complete and utter shock that there are posters on here trying to blame anyone but the church for this. What is wrong in your brain that you want to blame society for what happened?

    The church are 100% to blame for this, nobody else, they held all the power and control over people and that's why they could get away with it. I would love to see those nuns who are still alive face punishment for this and for them to die screaming.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,627 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I am astounded that the Bon Secours corporation is so 'untouchable'. Even the commission found it incredulous that they did not know where the missing 859 children at Bessborough were buried. Our state seems incapable of challenging them on it. Would this happen in any other country? 'Good Help' indeed. Irish people seem to accept that they are untouchable as a result of some kind of religious brain washing. How are the Gardai not investigating 859 missing children? It defies logic. Bessborough only closed in 1998 and as Finlay said, nuns usually maintain impeccable records. It's clearly a cover-up.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Not 100 per cent. Certainly there were farmers who made servant girls pregnant and sent them to homes like this so there would be no claim on the land. John B. Keane wrote about this decades ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,865 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Who profited from this? Who provided the infrastructure? Who manipulated the legislation (as little as it was?) Who sold the babies abroad?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭crossman47


    The farmer profited. Lust for land is a terrible feature of Ireland. I'm not disputing the role of the church at all but just pointing out another aspect.



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