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The Irish protocol.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,124 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    I was only asking him so that he could give that viewpoint on here. I can't get that perspective from any other regular genuine poster (that I know of)

    People shouldn't be blaming the Unionists for Brexit. Some may have been pro-Brexit but not enough to swing anything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,067 ✭✭✭trashcan


    Well the DUP were enthusiastic cheerleaders for it. Not only that, but for the most extreme form, which we’ve ended up with. Yet they refuse to own the consequences. I really do think they saw it as their chance to cement the border between North and South.



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    They were kingmakers. More power in Parliament than ever before and at a time crucial to NI's future. And they scuppered a soft Brexit that would have led to no borders anywhere.

    The entire UK would still be in the SM / CU temporarily while ways to allow them to leave it using technology were developed, as promised by the government. They instead chose a path that guaranteed a border somewhere hoping it would be between North and South.

    Unionists own this mess as much as anyone else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,124 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    The DUP did indeed facilitate it. But they couldn't have done it on their own and when they were no longer needed they were discarded and things kept motoring along without them.


    We don't know what would have happened if they had been against it. They were only made temporarily useful idiots by TM's miscalculations. It is unlikely that a consensus would have been reached the other way even if the DUP had been pro SM/CU. There was so much splintering going on over there



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The UK bent over backwards and said they'd stay in the SM and CU for them. The EU have bent over backwards making special rules and letting them police the SM's border. And they have screamed No at every turn.

    They embody the absolute worst of Brexit.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,379 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Of people who identified as Unionist in NI, 66% voted Leave.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,124 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Yes they voted for it. But they didn't cause it on their own. If 100% had voted Remain, they would have been still out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 537 ✭✭✭Speedline


    I saw a tweet from someone there, making the point that if the PUP are withdrawing from the GFA, shouldn't all UVF prisoners who were released early under the GFA be returned to prison to complete their sentences?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,741 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    If you guys are genuinely struggling to understand where unionists are on this, then just try to imagine if checks were placed somewhere in Ireland by your government because the were trying to get a trade deal with the uk and the uk said “only if you place checks outside dundalk”. Are you thinking it would be wrong for Irish people to disagree with their government and work to get the checks removed?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I think almost all unionists are frustrated at the incompetence of the British brexit negotiating team and the creating of additional checks at Larne. They appear to have had their eye wiped by EU and talk of republican violence.

    having said all that, the current moves may highlight that it was the Eu negotiating team who were incompetent. Seems it will take years for Eu to challenge Uk for invoking art 16. So it could be years without checks which will inevitably require temporary common sense to be applied by all to protect the single market. These common sense measures will likely work and become the basis for the new arrangements.

    now that would get us to the dream position in ni. Way beyond what I expected us to achieve, and securing the attractiveness of ni without us feeling outside our Uk nation.

    this may not be the outcome but it looks increasingly possible





  • Clear as daylight Jamie Bryson and Billy Hutchinson haven worked this between them.

    And I only honed in on this story yesterday, and went down a rabbit hole after watching the Bryson/Brolly podcast.

    Interesting character is Bryson, doesn't come across as very articulate and very much full of bluster.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I have said before, I think there is little risk of us losing the good stuff. Ironically thanks to Leo etc talking up ira violence. There is no way back for Leo and the Eu after all their promises, whether for honourable reasons or otherwise. OWC is not about to be cut out of some special arrangements. I honestly believe the deal can only get better for us by further opening up access from gb to ni.

    I get it. We are a pain in the arse to everyone at the minute, but we are about to become a more serious pain in the arse for the Eu, mainly of their own doing by trying to be too smart and use us to get at the Uk



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I think you are equating sore remainers outbursts as evidence that they understand ni. To suggest john major wouldn’t mess around ni, when he seems to believe it is not currently being messed around by the NIP



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,124 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Looking from the outside it appeared that the UK negotiators did what they wanted to do but just had to put up a pretense in relation to Unionist voices up North. Especially given the speed with which the DUP appeared to go from being kingmakers to complete irrelevance in terms of having any input.

    I don't think it is the case that the EU could not "retaliate" (for want of a better word) immediately. I gather they are just giving as much time as possible to see whether common sense will prevail rather than immediately escalating.

    The US are the elephant in the room for the UK when it comes to messing with the North. I don't think it is right to be pointing the finger at "republican violence" rather than looking honestly at the UK negotiators and politicians and the fact that they didn't really want to put their money where their mouth was when it came to NI. They were happy to damage their economy for their own "sovereignty" but weren't prepared to take an extra hit to protect the (Unionist view of) sovereignty in the North.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,124 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Nope. You misunderstand that post. I was only pointing out that there is no absolute reason that all UK politicians have to be completely ignorant of NI. Major did make significant progress with the Downing Street declaration. Tony Blair seemed to put a lot of effort into bringing sides to the table and keeping them there. Mowlam also seemed to have an ability to connect with both sides.

    All of the above happened long before Brexit was dreamed about.

    The current politicians appear completely clueless in comparison. I mentioned Bradley above. A prominent Brexit Tory, Andrew Bridgen, had the impression that he was entitled to an Irish passport because he was English.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I honestly think that if the shoe was in the other foot and Ireland had been the nation voting to leave the Eu, the Uk would have done everything in its power to be supportive, helpful and problem solving. Would you agree? In which case maybe some on here need to consider the actions and attitudes of their own people and parliament rather than spout old anti-English inferiority-complex nonsense



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,124 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Ireland was far more on the ball with identifying and trying to fix issues from the start downcow. The North was a distant afterthought to the Westminster politicians. Ireland was trying to help from the start.

    The likes of JRM was touting fabulous imaginary technological solutions 5 years ago. There is still no meat on those bones.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I agree with what you are saying about dup here except I don’t agree with this line that they done it to create a hard border. Maybe some tiny extreme edge of the party but not the mainstream.

    a large section of the dup (like the shinners, etc) think in black and white terms eg we are right you are wrong, we were the victims you were the perpetrators, etc. They applied the same thinking to brexit. I completely disagree with this position, just as I also disagree with the position that it iscurrent NIP (complete with physical checks) or nothing. Same type of thinking really



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I heard them interviewed and they were very clear that they supported the gfa 100% and were opposed to violence. They say they are withdrawing their support from what the gfa has become , or more specifically the selective removal of the consent principal which enabled the NIP



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    hardly a surprise who wrote it but genius by whoever discovered this 😂

    of course nothing unusual about someone getting assistance to write a press release and Billy Hutchinson struggles with reading and writing, is not academically educated and in his late sixties, so we should not be mocking the fact he got help. He struggled desperately I thought on the radio interview; painful and embarrassing to listen to.

    i haven’t read the press release but it is interesting that seems it was jamie helped him when billy is strongly pro BA agreement and I understand jamie is anti BA agreement

    Post edited by downcow on


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Interesting farmers journal piece on article 16. Seems Eu don’t have many options for 9 months but seems we will be having serious negotiations

    so I guess all that scoffing at me for months and telling me there would be no negotiations, may be a tad embarrassing in a few weeks. Of course a few posters will be preparing the spin literally as they read this

    https://www.farmersjournal.ie/what-article-16-would-mean-for-farmers-nothing-or-nightmare-659524



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,212 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Are you seriously delisounal? Can you name one time that the UK helped another country without expecting to benefit itself?

    Given that some of the DUP politicians have said they would welcome a hard border in the past, surely it is not beyond the possibility that their voters believe them.

    So, we support the GFA but then again, we don't support it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,741 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You lie to win again.

    You were told again and again the EU would negotiate within the framework and that rhe Protocol would remain.

    Art 16 does nor get rid of the Protocol.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭KildareP


    or more specifically the selective removal of the consent principal which enabled the NIP

    Which, as soon as you plug Brexit into the equation, falls down entirely as a cohesive argument.

    If Brexit does not require the consent of the people of NI, then by extension, the NIP which is a part of the Brexit deliverable does not either.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,212 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Given that you've already been educated several times about this, I'm quite surprised that you still think your inaccurate belief holds any water. Maybe you like creating this parallel narrative to suit your agenda in the same way that you keep spurting the nonsense about "Leo etc talking up ira violence" despite several posters previously correcting you on this.

    You strike me as a true unionist: consistently disingenuous in order to get your own way!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,067 ✭✭✭trashcan


    Nope, I absolutely don’t agree. Remember the Tories talking about starving Ireland out ? Not a chance in hell they would have gone out of their way for us. But then I’d sincerely hope that we wouldn’t have been so stupid as to vote to monumentally screw up our country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,593 ✭✭✭Mal-Adjusted


    Certain sections of the unionist community and political parties would be happy to see all of Northern Ireland burn if it meant they could plant a union flag on the ashes.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Taliyah Massive Ax


    No. The UK would have looked after the UK and noone else. And it would have lied a few times before doing it. And a few times after as well for good measure. And tried to find a way for their pals to make some money out of it. Maybe send the gunboats out if they could. Thats just the sort of government we have.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,794 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    The British government sold out part of their own country in order to get Brexit done. Yet you want us to believe they would have been on Irelands side if we were leaving the EU? I dont believe that that is really what you think. You quite simply can't be that naïve.



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