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Is Dave Chappelle's new special "The Closer" really transphobic?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭sekiro


    Obviously this would seem like the kind of content comedians would be interested in. I mean look at the guy stumbling over such a simple question. He would defer to a medical professional? Haha. Is intersex not incredibly rare and also caused by some kind of disorder?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    And I thought the guy asking the question was worthy of piss taking.. the way he refuses to budge or just push hard for a sound bite.

    Post edited by km991148 on


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 23,640 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Mod - Thread is going considerably off topic. This thread is not the new general purpose gender identity thread but I'm starting to see post content that has been posted before, multiple times, in previous iterations of gender identity threads.

    Can we stick to the topic in the op please



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The idea of transphobia(The thread title) and gender identities(recent discussion) are closely linked. On nearly every definition of transphobia I've looked at it includes somewhere something along the lines of;

    "disbelief or discounting preferred pronouns or gender identity" (This exact quote is from the planned parenthood website)

    On wikipedia it includes 'misgendering' under the 'manifestations of transphobia', and not using someone's preferred pronoun falls foul here. If I don't use one of the pronouns that someone wants me to use for them then that is transphobia.

    While that is an accepted definition of transphobia, especially by those who use the word to attack Chappelle and others surely the discussion on gender identity should go hand in hand with that. In fact it couldn't be more on topic.

    I used to think that transphobic meant having an irrational fear of trans people but I have been told reliably that it now includes far more than that. Maybe if someone could properly define transphobia this might clear a lot of things up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I used to think that transphobic meant having an irrational fear of trans people but I have been told reliably that it now includes far more than that. Maybe if someone could properly define transphobia this might clear a lot of things up.

    Any and all criticism of the Trans topic, in addition to, any opinion that doesn't instantly and completely accept the wide variety of claims relating to the overall topic.

    You can't have a set definition of Transphobia because the use of the terms is applied in such a varied way. In the past, we had a clear definition of <insert>phobia based along the lines of hate, contempt, or fear of a particular group. But that has been expanded too, to include just about anything that doesn't support that group in a positive manner.. the expansion of the term Racism shows a similar progression, so that it's now used all over the place without any specific meaning and usage.

    One of the problems with the Trans topic is that it's so broad, and includes such a wide variety of beliefs and situations. However, refusal to accept one, means refusal to accept all. The other problem is that because the Trans movement is so broad, and that the Advocates themselves are still figuring out what is involved in it, the beliefs and concepts are constantly changing as time goes by, because they supposedly resist categorisation, (except where they themselves are doing the categorisation).

    As such, Chappelle will continue to be called Transphobic because he is. He's not accepting the views of the Trans community without reservation, and he's not actively supporting them in their cause. Just as I'm Transphobic because while, I might agree/sympathise with some aspects of the Trans movement, I don't believe that the majority should be giving special recognition and rights to them.

    Fact is... everyone who doesn't accept the Trans beliefs is transphobic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,988 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Dave Chappelle will no doubt be considered transphobic by some members of the transsexual/transgender community. There may be others within that community who haven't really a problem with what Chappelle said, but we don't hear from them because they're not out there crowing about it - they just want to live a quiet life. We seem to be constantly falling into a trap these days of assuming that outspoken people on social media are the voice of those who they claim to represent. If we've learned nothing from the Facebook effect on political discourse, it's that the people who shout the loudest and most extremely will get the most attention. And to add to that, media outlets stand to make a lot of money by making more out of these culture war issues than they really are, just as social media platforms stand to generate revenue by buoying up those of an extreme opinion, which promotes 'engagement', as it is now known.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    The word transphobic is has been purposely made so broad it doesn't actually have to involve any hatred or fear ,it's a spectrum so anyone who wants to find something offensive so they can label someone transphobic that doesn't agree with the gender identity Ideology ,

    Much like the very large umbrella that covers trans ,non binary , intergender ,pans, asexual,bigender,agender, queer gender , gender fluid and multiple others self identities.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    There is a clear and unambiguous racist undertone to the way Chapelle is being targeted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,795 ✭✭✭Mrcaramelchoc


    Never mind that transphobic bullshit is it worth watching?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,399 ✭✭✭archfi


    It's worth a watch. I enjoyed it but it is as others have said probably too focused on one subject. He's a master of his craft so worth watching for that alone.

    The issue is never the issue; the issue is always the revolution.

    The Entryism process: 1) Demand access; 2) Demand accommodation; 3) Demand a seat at the table; 4) Demand to run the table; 5) Demand to run the institution; 6) Run the institution to produce more activists and policy until they run it into the ground.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    It's got a few funny moments over all it's decent enough ,

    That drama is faked by a tiny minority of attention seekers Claiming to be acting on behalf of the whole trans community which they are not , purely self appointed with twitter pronouns .



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    or exaggerated by those wishing to profit from the gullible and/or permanently outraged..



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,647 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Watched it the other day, and it's the first time I have ever seen one of his stand-ups. Know very little about him.

    Average enough stuff to be honest. Very slow paced and not a lot of laugh out loud material. But clever in parts. I can see why folk got annoyed, but they need to remember he's a comedian, and they say things for shock value, often not actually believing what they say.

    I take it he's a big thing in the US?

    I have seen a few other comedy specials in the last few years, and I would find Bill Burr a whole lot funnier.



  • Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭cafflingwunts


    Felt like this one was more about him explaining his views and very clearly declaring his opinion on trans people will not be shared with the public as a result of his friends suicide. The irony of people getting worked up about this netflix special is too much considering alot of his time is spent detailing just how severe the effects of cancel culture can be.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,051 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Decent special all the same , not the best but decent



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,451 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    For the comedy, no, but I won't forget the bit were Chappelle mimicked the mother of a transgender person after showing him a pic of her - "she's - trans- gen - der". That was funny. As was the bit about the person he had some kind of altercation with who tied their shirt up in a knot, Britney Spears style.

    Anyway, initially I regretted signing up for a month of Netflix just to watch Chappelle and catch a few series besides but after watching the doc "Disclosure" and "The Death and Life of Marsha P. Johnson" I don't regret it now.

    So the Disclosure doc is about a number of Trans actors complaining about how trans people are depicted in film and TV over the years. In it Laverne Cox (trans) made the oft made claim that trans people started the gay rights movement. Two in particularly, Marsha p Johnson and Sylvia Rivera. Cox goes on to say that trans people of colour have been 'erased' and 'as she understands it', it was this "trans women of colour" that started the gay rights movement... so us gays have them to thank for our rights. I've always said, that that is total nonsense, purely based on my own intuition. Also, Susan Stryker, another actor said 'gay men are the most transphobic' of all. I'll come back to that later.

    Now the Martha Doc. Well to my surprise the doc had lots of video footage of this person as well as Sylvia Rivera which I was unaware existed. Martha was found in the Hudson river and was suspected of being murdered. Anyone who watches that doc and things that either of those people were the leaders of a gay rights movement need their heads examined. The doc did not reveal any activism at all save for dressing up as a drag queen at gay rights rallies. And they weren't even transgender, they were homosexual queens. And that explains why they were hanging out in gay bars. Even if they are transgender they are still both clearly homosexuals. So the claim is even more absurd than I initially thought.

    Martha's parents referred to Martha as him when interviewed where the interviewer referred to him as 'her'. Martha referred to everyone gay as queens. There was footage of Martha referring to 'normal' gays as 'the butch queens'. That was the mentality of Martha who would prolly think all gay men are transgender by today's definition, which is the kind of mentality that has feminine gay feminine men increasingly coming out as non-binary or whatever it is. I know those type of people and they are defiantly not transgender, at best they are transsexuals of one variety or other to one degree or other, or even queen will do, since I don't think there is an accurate term to describe them.

    So back to Susan Stryker. Why would Stryker say in a documentary for all to see that she things gay men are the most transphobic of all. It's simple. It's because gay people like me (butch queens) have an insight into this topic that heterosexuals don't have, therefore it is trivially easy for us to expose the bullshit of the trans ideologues. In a previous thread I half-joked that we'll have a personality Pride next and in fact that is precisely what is going on. Part of it anyway.

    So the point is, you can't believe a word these trans ideologues say - about absolutely anything related to trans. I don't even consider them as trans, I consider then as Radical Leftist 'Progressives', because it's an insult to sane trans people to speak of them the way I do as trans generally. Shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush you see. They are at the root of all these ongoing trans controversies, so it is not right for LLMMLL to talk of use here as anti-trans, but anti trans-ideologues, or better still, anti radical-leftists.

    If anyone want's to watch a more realistic documentary than that fake glitzy American one then I strongly recommend currently on the BBC iPlayer "Inside Story - A Change of Sex". A brilliant doc that documents the life of Julia Grant over a couple of decades, now deceased. Lovely genuine person she was to, not like those fake American actors with their fake tears and lies as seen in Disclosure.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p04frg16/a-change-of-sex-1-george-the-big-decision


    To finish, this is a photo of Marsha P Johnson

    Is this

    a: A trans woman of colour who started the gay rights movement

    or

    b: a male homosexual queen who frequented gay bars who just happened to be around at the time of the Stonewall riots?

    You decide.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,051 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Yes it’s worth watching if you’re a comedy fan



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148



    Yep - I explicitly requested clarification from the mods - no shame in that.. meanwhile the thread took all sorts of wild turns last night (in lieu of that clarification).


    before I asked the thread wasn't too divergent.. now its the wild west of bs (of which you have been a significant driver).

    @Ten of Swords / @Baggly / @Beasty  

    Tagging again because who knows what's allowed with all this crazy anecdotal makey-upy nonsense..



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 23,640 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    This note is clear - stick to the topic in the op. This is not a general purpose thread, which has already been stated unambiguously.

    Thread is going to need a tidy up shortly, cards will be handed out.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,812 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    I’m going to try and bring this back to Chappelle and his specials and hopefully highlight why this is such a contentious issue.

    Chappelle constantly says that he has no hatred towards the trans community and makes them the butt of some jokes. He also makes himself and his own race targets for jokes and makes some interesting points during his routines, namely who is more of a victim and how is victimhood measured. Is one unit of racism worth more or less than a unit of transphobia in the intersectional equation? If so, who gets to make that final decision, and is it open to scrutiny or debate?

    What is clear is this: Transgender people are here, and like pretty much anyone I’ve met, I have no problem with that fact. As a ‘group’, that may be the only thing some have in common with each other. Here is the hard part for the activists to swallow: They are not all genuine transgender people. Even if we agree for the sake of discussion that 99% of transgender people are genuine, the remaining 1% are a cocktail of (to name a few):

    1. Autogynephiles; men who are sexually aroused by seeing themselves dressed and made up as a woman, typically in dated stereotyped outfits.
    2. Sex offenders claiming they’ve just started to transition in order to either get placed in women’s prisons or to access ‘women only’ spaces.
    3. People who are confused about their sexuality and pushed into what some refer to as gender ideology because of the advisor’s own bias.
    4. People who have given themselves over to Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria within their peer group. This is commonly referred to as ‘a fad’ that they later grow out of.
    5. People who, in later life, wish to detransition, and go public about their regrets.

    It’s the 1% that are brought up again and again and again as if they are representative of the group as a whole. That’s like taking Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer and Fred West as examples that all men are serial killers waiting for their chance to go on a spree. In reality, most men, like most women, just want to get on with their lives. The same can be said for genuine transgender people if they are a representative sample of society, and there is no reason to believe they are not.

    It all comes apart at the seams when the topic comes up on forums like here. We lose the ability to talk to each other and listen to the other’s points. It’s made worse that there are bad faith actors posting deliberately inflammatory comments that they know with get a rise out of the other. Add to that are some people who are simply incapable of getting their point across, and resort to screaming insults to silence a point that they are incapable of silencing with their own convincing words. Finally, the activists that Chappelle has angered so much are proving his point for him by calling him made up names and attempting to get him ‘cancelled’.

    The truth is so simple that people on both sides of the ‘debate’ refuse to acknowledge or don’t want to move from their position; trans people are individuals first, and a group, second. As individuals, they are all flawed, and it’s not transphobic to point out that trans person X is a tosser who happens to be trans. Likewise, you’re not a woke SJW if you acknowledge that there are some incredibly smart people out there who happen to be trans.

    Chappelle’s specials acted as a pressure release valve for the frustration that’s out there, in large part because of the activist view that trans people are sacrosanct and can do no wrong because they’re trans, and if you disagree, you’re obviously transphobic. If that lazy reasoning or name-calling doesn’t stop, then we can expect more comedians to follow in Chappelle’s footsteps, with cancel culture backfiring as the crowds rush to see what the fuss is all about, aka The Streisand Effect.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    👋👋👋👋👋👋👋



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ultimately, there are two questions:

    1) do the trans- community deserve a pass as the only subject that a comedian cannot touch?

    2) what should trans people do about such comedians that do?

    The answer to (1) must be no; as no subject should be banned from ridicule or comedy.

    However, if some trans- people - or even non-trans people - are offended by the jokes, they can voluntarily choose not to watch his shows.

    And that's where the debate ends.

    Fat people may be offended by some jokes by some comedians, but the rest of us aren't banned from listening to those jokes. The principle is universal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,051 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    He’s in London next month and has 3 free nights before hitting Europe, I’ll actually pray he comes over , surely a 3 arena gig ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 83,398 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    All the TERFs and Transphobes can all congregate and take a good hard look at themselves, sure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,255 ✭✭✭DavidLyons_




  • Registered Users Posts: 83,398 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,255 ✭✭✭DavidLyons_




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    People decide for themselves and if enough of them move in the same direction business will take note.

    We don't need talk of cancel culture and the like as it's often used as a push back against people, often correctly, calling out material they find offensive.

    You can no more tell people to be offended than you can tell them not to be.

    A lot of this, IMO, goes back to people having a problem with equality.

    The special is funny. A bit too one dimensional, but good.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The insults that women get thrown at them simply for refusing to disregard/deny biological sex, and have the term "woman" redefined (none of this means hating trans people - obviously) - no wonder women feel the ideology is fraught with misogyny, and so many very leftwing women are feeling failed by the left. I used to be super leftwing - I see the far left now as sexist, anti semitic, and extremely authoritarian. I'm still a liberal (a US christian conservative would consider me borderline pinko) but thank goodness I see the extreme and hypocritical elements of the left for what they are... and that not everything conservative is the devil incarnate.



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