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Ireland badly needs a new centre-right party - Here's my proposal

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    But they are crashing themselves out of the next election with their current bullshit...



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Housing is actually an easy one to solve but there is no political will to do it. We live in a place with the lowest density of population in the western world but seem unable to cope. Dublin suffers because it is on a coast. If it was inland (like Berlin for example) it would be much easier to house everyone. Given the limitations on Dublin other options are needed but it just takes too long in this country to do anything (example metro north/Navan train) that you can see why all businesses prefer Dublin to lessen the risk of being cut off.

    In addition there are plenty of people living in low density old city centre housing that do not need to be in the middle of the city. Purpose built estates in Kildare, Offaly, Meath etc could easily accommodate them and 10 workers could be accommodated in the city centre in their absence. Again an unpalatable solution for most politicians but a sensible one imo. Not advocating forced movement of people but a similar process to the congested districts board in the 1890s should be discussed at least.

    Post edited by Pawwed Rig on


  • Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    Exactly right. There wouldn't need to be any "forced movement". Just ban social housing leasing by councils. Councils would be forced to house people in 100% social estates whereever they may be (very unlikely to be city centre if the council can't lease). If the people themselves wnat something better, well they can think about getting an education, job etc and doing something useful with their lives. Lots of opportunities out there, every shop and restaurant seems to be hiring. Right now, there is a total disincentive to better themselves and get a job as they would actually be worse off due to high welfare rates.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    And for the more than 95% of ordinary, law-abiding tenants who have done nothing to actually require eviction? The tenants who keep to the terms of the lease, pay their rent on time?

    They have no protection. "Sorry, your 1-year lease is up, I'm not renewing it. Need the house for a family member." No long-term leases, no rent protection, no security of tenure. This has been pointed out before on this thread, but you seem to keep missing it, and only talk about the tiny percentage of problem tenants.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Part 4 tenancy rights trump anything in a lease. You aquire those after six months


    Tenant protection is very robust in Ireland, especially for rogue tenants, I realise the public narrative is quite different but it's false

    Not sure why you think only " a tiny percentage of tenants " are problematic?


    Far more rogue tenants than rogue landlords for the simple reason the laws protect rogue tenants.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    that's like a political statement... what point are you trying to make...



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,992 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    This is everything I want in a political party. Make sure you're socially liberal (pro choice, pro LGBTQ rights etc) and I'm in



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Surely I could level the same charge against you ?

    Name one piece of legislation the past ten years which favoured landlords over tenants?


    Been all one way traffic



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    It's a GOOD thing that there's a process to be followed before landlords can just chuck people onto the street. It goes some way to stopping the more nastier side of that "profession" getting rid of people willy nilly, even though that option is open to them every 12 months. That some of them might have to deal with some difficult tenants will get no tears from me because everything else is geared toward the landlord and tenants are at the mercy of them on a yearly basis.

    Your crying for landlords will get no truck from the vast majority of people in this I can assure you of that.

    We need in this country a truly proper renting system that's far more stringently regulated and with much better checks and balances. But like our arse of housing system in general, there is no political will to tackle it so it just festers, with out of control rents and people allowed to hock out shit at exploitative cost. Dog boxes with a mattress on the floor can be passed off as a room for rent. That's the reality of the renting sector in Ireland for some people. Some of the viewing on DAFT.ie makes for a chilling reminder at just what it is our renters have to look forward to.

    But just because landlords have to go through an actual process they can evict tenants doesn't mean it's a tenants market or that tenants rights, in general, are "robust".



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    @Tony EH How is the option to evict someone every 12 months open to landlords. It is a couple of years since I looked at the primary legislation but my understanding is that a tenant that has been in situ more than 6 months is entitled to part 4 tenancy which lasts until the end of the 4th year. Has this been reversed?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    The vast majority of leases over here are 12 months. That essentially means that tenants are subject to living in the a given place for a year at a time. It's rare that tenants here get leases over that time period written into contacts.

    Part 4 tenancy is meaningless in reality and there's easy loopholes. All a landlord has to say is that they're selling up or one of their children needs the property.

    There's a couple who lived across the road from us that had to move out a couple of weeks ago. The landlord said he was selling and they had no choice. The property is back up for rent now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭funkyzeit100


    House prices have reached into the stratosphere because housing was commodified.


    It has been sold to vulture funds and filled with non-irish people. See the other thread on "purpose built student accommodation" for a small example.


    This isn't a dig at "deh fordners", it's a very simple, insidious, strategy to increase scarcity to increase profit. Everyone, Irish or not, are pawns.


    No matter what anyone parrots, it IS that simple. That's the truth.


    There will be no other party allowed materialise when the current regime is making so much money. It will take a crippling recession to allow that space, and to see the manifesto in the op ignoring the stark reality of housing, it gives pause as to whether anything will ever be fixed and put right.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    @Tony EH A 12 month lease during a part 4 tenancy is meaningless as you cannot have your rights reduced by a lease. If a tenant chooses they do not have to sign a lease (if in the property greater than 6 months) and they are still entitled to stay there for 4 years. Unless this has been repealed but I haven't heard if it was.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    A landlord can end a tenancy based on the below:

    The tenant has breached their responsibilities.

    The property is not suited to the tenant’s needs.

    The landlord requires the property for personal or family use.

    The landlord wants to sell the property.

    Significant refurbishment of the property.

    The use of the property is changing.


    The bolded sections are an easy out for the landlord to take, if they want tenants out of a property.

    IMO, Pt4 tenancy is a good thing and it's a pity it wasn't around when I was renting. But the loopholes are there for a landlord to get out of it if they wish.

    In fairness, there are cases where the tenants of a place can be a nightmare to deal with, so it's understandable that those options are there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    You have it arseways, part 4 tenancy trumps anything in a lease


    Leases are pointless really in terms of the bullet points of a tenancy



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    That's the way it was when I had a property (no more thank God). I never bothered with a lease after the first one on the basis that part 4 applied.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,099 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    only so much shop workers etc required and when automation comes they will be the most and first effected..

    we tried classist cleansing and social housing only estates already, we aren't going back there again.

    mixed estates are the only option on the table.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Unless a landlord has a very specific condition ,they are unnecessary, no lease overrides the fundamentals of part 4



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Yeah that is what I thought so the 12 months point above is nonsense then yeah?



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,581 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Some decent points in the OP but the problem is any party who wants to be in power will have to go into coalition and all the other parties now have woke liberal TDs in their ranks who would be horrified at some of those proposals.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,099 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    the tds aren't woke, but rather realise the reality that the country is a modern country where there is little demand for a type of politics that has been proven to fail again and again.

    that is why the op's political party will only ever be another boards fantasy party.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭funkyzeit100


    They realise that the country is a magnificent source of easy money, you mean. A "modern country" indeed.


    The outright bs that the population swallows here is outstanding, absolutely outstanding.


    Well, we/they'll know all about it when the country is broken beyond repair which is well on the way.


    There have been a bunch of cute hoors running this country for a long time but they have well and truly taken the mickey the last few years. Daylight bloody robbery.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Most landlord- tenant arrangements nowadays wouldn't have a lease as the tenant has all they need with part 4



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    The TDs are pathetic, held up by the media class



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    So EOTR, should we keep going with the existing politik?



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,099 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    as a whole? no .

    however lots of aspects of it are fine, and put them with a politics that finally invests in things like infrastructure, housing and implements reform to stamp out cronyism and poor services and we will have a good system.

    but the op's fantasy party isn't that politics.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Demonstrably not true, and debunked already in this thread. E.g., the news report on over 50% of property owners registering for LPT by the deadline, but that figure falling to a mere 14% for landlords who own 10 or more properties.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Except what Tony EH described is happening every day, up and down the country. Part 4 tenancy protections are **** all use in retrospect when you've already moved out because "I'm selling up" and then it goes back on the rental market the following week.



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