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Formula 1 round 19: Brazil GP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,212 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    This is true, but it makes getting to the front as he did a fairly handy task and probably not one of the drives of the century as some would have us believe. Maybe I shouldn't have looked at the Sky News website.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,131 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    I heard Horner say that an F1 engine loses ten percent in performance during it's lifetime i.e.over the course of one season.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    Apparently the Merc issue is that drop off happens quick and fast! This is why they haven’t been running them on full this season. Last season they could change power settings during the race as needed whereas that’s banned now, it’s set it and forget it now!

    I’d equate it to running a car engine! You’d never run it at full revs all the time or else it’ll quickly be nackered! With 3 races and 2 engines… do they have one or two more weekends running at 110% before one of them is a paperweight? Practice, Qualy and Race at full whack? Even in the previous dominant years they never attempted that!



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,541 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    That is for the Honda. It's performance curve is quite flat over its life, so the drop off for their ICE is quite low.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,283 ✭✭✭RoryMac


    Footage from Max's car in that corner, it would be interesting to see the same from Hamilton's car




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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,283 ✭✭✭RoryMac




  • Registered Users Posts: 723 ✭✭✭tigerboon




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭waynescales1


    I don’t see Verstappen “opening the steering” there.



  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It doesn't exactly look like he tried to turn any harder left than he ended up going. I don't think they could have had many complaints with a penalty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 723 ✭✭✭tigerboon


    It's never anywhere near full lock to begin with until Hamilton is already off track. Watch the steering on entry and exit...pretty much the opposite to what would be expected.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    It’s clear he widens the curve going into the corner yes….. however, the steering wheel is always pointing left and never moves the other way….. His wheel was ahead going into the corner so he does have a right to take the corner as he sees fit! He didn’t make contact with anyone and Lewis could have bailed and tried the switch on the inside but opted not to! I think a racing incident myself! If you can’t defend then we don’t have racing!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,827 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    I think Max did well to keep the car rotating there and ultimately avoided the collision.

    Not even sure why Hamilton decided to risk it on that corner when he had another 9 laps or 18 straights with superior speed to make it stick. Seems a bit idiotic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,283 ✭✭✭RoryMac


    Mercedes have seen the footage, it'll be interesting to see what the FIA do here





  • Registered Users Posts: 45,759 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    Guess they are hoping they can get him a 5 second penalty, which would drop him to third.



  • Registered Users Posts: 45,759 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    Imo he was only ahead because he braked way too late and had decided to push Hamilton off, as evidenced by him coming nowhere near making the corner, going miles off track and gaining a lasting advantage.

    Should have been an easy penalty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,346 ✭✭✭✭blade1


    A bit overenthusiastic by Max to keep the lead but a thing of nothing really.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,353 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    I think max Footage shows steering behaviour reasonably in line with what he might be able to do during the downchanges. Braking late and heavy would mean little ability to turn in.

    I'd say it will be hard to prove whether he did or didn't deliberately run wide.

    Either way, great bit of race craft to keep the stupidly fast Merc behind.



  • Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭Lawlesz


    I felt fully at the time that it was going to be a penalty, based on the evidence available. I was genuinely surprised that it wasn't sent to the stewards for investigation, but for me that was the end of it.

    I don't really see anything in the newly released on board that I think will change the stewards mind. Not sure if he was under steering and not fully turning left in case he lost it, or if he deliberately took it wide to run Lewis off, but for sure he didn't turn the wheel to the right, and in my opinion that's the thing the stewards would need to dish out a penalty. Disappointing to see this from Mercedes as I felt they have been petulant all weekend when caught out and are determined to continue in that vein.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,611 ✭✭✭quokula


    Pretty poor behavior from Mercedes trying to steal the championship in the back rooms but that is what you'd expect of them. They don't have a leg to stand on in terms of forming a credible case but we've seen many times that Merc hold a lot of influence over the FIA and they continually get favourable decisions or entire rule changes put in place to help them so it's hard to have full confidence in a fair outcome.

    If they start down this route it really is going to invite other teams to further scrutinise the legality of their rear wing and we could end up with a lot of tit for tat legal battles in the final stages of the championship.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,541 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    I think this will not go anywhere. Max tries his best and he is always turning. There might be more data to go with it but he was hardly going to take the corner as he usually would seeing as he was defending.

    Merc just doing the political game, probably in anticipation of the protest from RB.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 45,759 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    Pretty poor from Max to deliberately run his rival off the road. If Lewis hadn't moved to avoid him it could have been like the crash that everyone on here claims was an attempt on Max's life by Hamilton.

    Max was always turning, but nowhere near enough to actually attempt the corner. He deliberately let the car go wide right and force hamilton off the track. He's braking point was also no attempt to make the corner. The only reason Hamilton went off the track was to avoid being crashed into by a driver coming from behind him and no where near a racing line. Max's actions were absolutely deliberate and absolutely the result he was looking for, if not possibly short of crashing Hamilton out.

    It is genuinely laugable that people are defending what Max did here, after saying Lewis was at fault the time Max drove over his head. Max can do absolutely no wrong for some people. Absolute blind hatred of Hamilton. Its pathetic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,212 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    Maybe but I think you’re being a little generous. I think he gets a 5 second penalty and it’s probably deserved. Much as I dislike Hamilton.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    Maybe… the FIA aren’t the most consistent when dishing out punishments. As another poster alluded, the wheel is always moving left and he never moves it to the right, and that’s what the stewards would be looking for. I don’t think there is anything new in that footage that wasn’t already known! While I don’t think anymore action is needed, I would not be in the least bit surprised if a penalty was given.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,111 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    As it has been for many years. Mercedes-Benz have nothing tangible to lose by getting the stewards to take an official look at the footage. Remember Red Bull got Hamilton dropped 3 places in Austria when it emerged from the 360 camera that there was a yellow board flashing in the corner of Lewis's eye. If Red Bull have the right to present that then Mercedes-Benz have the right to do the same.

    If successful, the punishment is most likely going to be a grid drop in the next race rather than a reclassification I believe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭recyclebin


    I don't expect Max to get a penalty now at as its too late and would cause uproar. He definitely deserved a 5s penalty at the time. I expect the FIA will clarify th rules for the next race so everyone knows where they stand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,541 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    I can think of a 51G reason why this is very different to Silverstone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,614 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Strange how Mercedes are so desperate to have the titles just handed to them.


    This race showed they have the superior car to secure both. Why the constant begging?



  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I find it incredibly hard to believe that the steering inputs represent anything close to an honest attempt to make the corner. There's no understeer, the car looks to react perfectly to the steering inputs. As for being ahead

    I said at the time it could (likely should) be a penalty but it was let go, bit mad to get the FIA in after stewards have said it was fine.

    This is the frame before Hamilton brakes, the front of Max's wing might just be level with Hamilton's rear axle.

    In the next frame the gap closes as Verstappen brakes later which is how he gets "alongside", despite being on the inside. Going back to Silverstone Hamilton was fully alongside and takes a line with less steering lock, likely expecting Verstappen to back out of it. I think the penalty for Hamilton that time was fair enough. I think he was expecting Verstappen to back out and give him room. Similarly in Brazil Verstappen blocks anything resembling a racing line for Hamilton despite only just overlapping with the back of Hamilton's car at the braking point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    Honest question…. We know the car leading into the corner has the right to take whatever line they want (within reason of course) but when does the corner start? The braking zone? The point the car starts to turn? The point where the “racing line” would turn? Or do the stewards just decide on a case my case basis?

    In the above still they’re still 75M short of the corner, so for me that’s not the point where it starts, but I could be wrong. Never realised that I don’t know the answer to this.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,541 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    There was some mention of the car needing to be near the rear axle, I remember reading that after the silverstone crash.



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