Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

30-06-2021 10:19pm

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I'm in favour of an open draw because I think the provincial system is outdated leads to all kinds of confusing fixes to the structure of the championship, but not sure playing more games is necessarily an advantage, especially at a grade level where the main complaint seems to be burnout.

But whatever gets us to an open draw faster is good IMO. Do it at senior as well.

Would an open draw,not effectively remove any chance of success/silverware from the 2nd tier counties (clare,dublin,wex,waterford etc)??

The way it is now,gives a good mix imo

Lost Ormond · 30-06-2021 10:47pm

PTH2009 wrote: »

Think the under 20 All-Ireland should go to an open draw format maybe groups of 3

Leinster teams having an advantage of playing more games than the Munster teams which only contains 5 teams

Leinster Championship contains 12 teams with Galway, Antrim and Down from outside the province

I disagree i would like group format but wouldnt like to see provincial titles removed

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I'm in favour of an open draw because I think the provincial system is outdated leads to all kinds of confusing fixes to the structure of the championship, but not sure playing more games is necessarily an advantage, especially at a grade level where the main complaint seems to be burnout.

But whatever gets us to an open draw faster is good IMO. Do it at senior as well.

I dont think the provincial system is out dated at all and it doesnt need or have to result in any confusing structures to the championship.
Burnout is as much from over training than the number of matches a lot of these players actually play

PTH2009 wrote: »

Sure aren't under 20 players not allowed on the senior panels nowadays if selected for the Under 20 panel?

maybe trying an open draw at underage level would be a good start

Is it not if an under 20 is selected by the senior squad they cant play 20s not what you suggest.
I think having provincials is a good thing even more at age grade level. reducing what teams could possibly win isnt good thing

Realt Dearg Sec · 30-06-2021 11:56pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would an open draw,not effectively remove any chance of success/silverware from the 2nd tier counties (clare,dublin,wex,waterford etc)??

Hahaha nice

Rosita · 01-07-2021 9:52am

Deleted User wrote: »

Would an open draw,not effectively remove any chance of success/silverware from the 2nd tier counties (clare,dublin,wex,waterford etc)??

The way it is now,gives a good mix imo

Certainly in theory it would. The counties you mention have won 7 provincial championships since the turn of the millennium but only one All Ireland title. That would suggest that success would dry up completely for some counties especially when they have football competing for resources.

But maybe that process is already in train. The pre-Covid non-knockout, even the original backdoor system, all favour teams with deeper resources.

The 'won't it deprive teams of provincial success? argument will be blown out of the water by those who'll (as will happen in football) point to how rarely these wins happen. Dublin - 1 provincial titles in 60 years, Wexford 4 in 44, Waterford 4 in 58, Clare 3 in 89 years. Should something statistically so improbable hold up changes to the championship? It's a reasonable argument but your original point is solid too.

My only issue with the 'open draw' thing is that hurling might just adopt the same non-knockout system with just different teams in the groups rather than have them organised provincially. Is that really such a big change? Not sure that maybe Wexford playing Clare and Limerick a couple of years running would have the same interest for them as their games against Kilkenny.

Of course this will be ambushed by abstract arguments about the 'need for change' which can be very persuasive for those who like to be seen as forward-thinking. But the need for reform of the hurling championship at senior level does not seem to be immediate anyway as quite a few teams are competitive. (Others might argue that that's the best time to change it as it'd be even better - that's a valid opinion too).

Under-age competitions are, attendance-wise, backwater projects anyway. No great matter if they are open draw. Only issue might be putting pointless levels of extra travel on teams especially in competitions which use midweek fixtures.

Billy Ocean · 04-07-2021 4:24pm

Plenty of faith in the game resorted so far this weekend.

04-07-2021 6:33pm

Rosita wrote: »

Certainly in theory it would. The counties you mention have won 7 provincial championships since the turn of the millennium but only one All Ireland title. That would suggest that success would dry up completely for some counties especially when they have football competing for resources.

But maybe that process is already in train. The pre-Covid non-knockout, even the original backdoor system, all favour teams with deeper resources.

The 'won't it deprive teams of provincial success? argument will be blown out of the water by those who'll (as will happen in football) point to how rarely these wins happen. Dublin - 1 provincial titles in 60 years, Wexford 4 in 44, Waterford 4 in 58, Clare 3 in 89 years. Should something statistically so improbable hold up changes to the championship? It's a reasonable argument but your original point is solid too.

My only issue with the 'open draw' thing is that hurling might just adopt the same non-knockout system with just different teams in the groups rather than have them organised provincially. Is that really such a big change? Not sure that maybe Wexford playing Clare and Limerick a couple of years running would have the same interest for them as their games against Kilkenny.

Of course this will be ambushed by abstract arguments about the 'need for change' which can be very persuasive for those who like to be seen as forward-thinking. But the need for reform of the hurling championship at senior level does not seem to be immediate anyway as quite a few teams are competitive. (Others might argue that that's the best time to change it as it'd be even better - that's a valid opinion too).

Under-age competitions are, attendance-wise, backwater projects anyway. No great matter if they are open draw. Only issue might be putting pointless levels of extra travel on teams especially in competitions which use midweek fixtures.

Smells a wee bit like the super league in soccer....where it mainly money driven and the benefits for the game as whole are at best questionable

I would say as regards reform,the round robin in munster isnt missed with the covid,which should say alot to people,and the older back door method gave a more balanced approach with shock results giving better value

The_Kew_Tour · 04-07-2021 8:21pm

The Spillanes and Brollys are just looking for a excuse to make Hurling look bad as Football has been muck for ages.

Yes something needs be done with players length but that’s about it. Once even half fixed it will be far superior game then Handball in grass sport.

Rosita · 04-07-2021 8:41pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Smells a wee bit like the super league in soccer....where it mainly money driven and the benefits for the game as whole are at best questionable

I would say as regards reform,the round robin in munster isnt missed with the covid,which should say alot to people,and the older back door method gave a more balanced approach with shock results giving better value

I'm balance the qualifiers are more attractive than the round robin for a spectator but the GAA just does not want teams knocked out early.

Clareman · 04-07-2021 9:07pm

We can't go back to a 1 and done championship, the amount people put into the game deserves a fair bite at the cherry, talk to any senior club player and they'll tell you that they give up at least 15 hours a week to the game between gym, stretching, food, analysis and training, bring that to county level and that's multiplied by 10.

Swamp_Cat · 20-07-2021 12:20pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117386332#Comment_117386332

You guys finally got me to round up my sticks & a measuring tape. 2 sticks made for me in 2011 don't resemble the famed "Star" Dowling sticks I picked up just before the pandemic I think. Bas is not significantly bigger like some. 14cm on the 10yo sticks(34") from Phelans & B. Barcoe compared w/around 17cm on the 33" Dowling hurls. Haven't checked the Cultec I keep in the car(35°-45°summer temps are not kind to ash) but it's on the smaller side although beat as it is you can really wallop the sliotar w/one.

More than the bas what stood out was that the older(better IMO) hurls are much lighter even though they're shorter. Looking at them lined up you can see the newer ones are almost round compared with sticks just a decade old. I'm sure if I was in better shape it wouldn't matter as much but I feel about as nimble with those beasts as I would hurling w/a baseball bat. Not much difference. I almost never grab the newer hurls. I would go so far as to say that I prefer an old, slightly damaged Cultec to the famed Star hurley's. It's a personal thing obviously but keeping the bas no more than 16/17cm doesn't sound overly challenging. looking forward to getting my hands on a Bambú stick for comparison & how it holds up on both 40° days as well as the subzero temps of winter which make ash unusable. 0° is doable but much cooler & they snap like twigs. and 0° would be considered above average. Even balmy.

Enforcement of existing rules is or should always be the first step. Then go from there w/science & a realistic approach in regards to being able to officiate said changes. Camogie Association manage to improve both the spectacle & skill level of players. For all those really down on hurling, club, Fitzgibbon, junior/intermediate are all still great & I think I've seen more enjoyable camogie matches than IC hurling matches over the past few years.

IC hurling is just a noisy minority.

Swamp_Cat · 20-07-2021 12:30pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117386137#Comment_117386137

Ten years on ... the smaller bas is a 34" stick from B. Barcoe, the other is a 33" 2019/20 stick from Star. For the most part the Star hurls gather dust. In the 2nd picture, I tried to capture the difference in thickness. Didn't do a good job but the difference is huge. Especially the weight.

20210720_072248.jpg

20210720_072340.jpg

BENDYBINN · 23-07-2021 10:30pm

The yellow ball is a disaster

Clare in Exile · 02-08-2021 10:37pm

It's an interesting discussion on the evolution of Hurling. I think theories such as the configuration of the ball and size of bás need to be aligned with the fact that tactics have evolved also. Some great points were made about how possession is now King, a more nuanced approach to passing the ball rather than just belting it down the field is now required.

While this evolution may be a more intelligent use of the ball, the fact is that we have also lost something of the "madness" of the game that we love. Gargantuan points totals have now diminished the appreciation of point scoring. There were some brilliant long-range efforts in the Waterford v Tipperary game, but such was their regularity that they barely raised a ripple from the crowd.

Points are being welcomed by almost polite applause these days, whereas in days of yore a guttural roar would accompany them.

It's part of the evolution of the game, but these high scoring contests, akin to basketball games, are causing us to become bloated on the skills on offer (such as long-range points and sideline balls being routinely clipped over the bar).

The game may be becoming too sane and structured for its own good, it will be interesting to see where it evolves to next. As mentioned, the days of blindly lashing the ball downfield for a 50/50 challenge are gone forever. Intelligent use of the ball, even moving it backwards, is the modern way...

PTH2009 · 03-08-2021 12:14am

Even looking back at games from the 90s/00s the standard of hurling is nothing compared to the skill levels now. The amount of balls been dropped back then is amazing compared to now is amazing

at some points in this game the standard is terrible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmUAJdF5zrw

Davys Fits · 15-11-2021 11:09pm

Listening to Anthonys Dalys examiner podcast and it seems that a proposal will soon be put forward to the GAA to address the handpass in hurling. Great to hear it being discussed and agreement that even though the club games at the weekend were great entertainment its now coming to the point that refs are finding it impossible to assess the thrown handpass.

The integrity of the game is at stake and it time for change.

big_drive · 16-11-2021 10:12am

Having to handpass from off the hurley could sort it

Sunny Disposition · 16-11-2021 2:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118173340#Comment_118173340

That does sound like a step in the right direction.

Any chance that the rule on the size of the bad could be enforced? If it were it’d change everything, striking points from huge distances wouldn’t be nearly as common. This could lead to a more direct game, where territory would become more important than it is in the current game.

Davys Fits · 16-11-2021 3:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118174851#Comment_118174851

Agreed about the bas but one thing at a time and right now the thrown handpass needs to be dealt with. When players cant throw the ball then finding players in space might not be as easy and easy scores from distance may be less frequent. The handpass from the hurley and the switched hands pass will still be allowed I would imagine.

randd1 · 17-11-2021 2:22pm

Given free reign over changes within hurling, I’d go with the following.

Championships

Amalgamate the leagues and championships. Including London, Lancashire & Warwickshire, there’s 35 counties involved.

Senior AI Championship – 12 teams, round robin format, 11 games each (teams alternate home/away fixtures every year). Top two teams into AI Sf’s. Teams 3-6 in AI QF’s. Teams 11 & 12 in relegation playoff.

Intermediate AI Championship – 12 teams, round robin format, 11 games each (teams alternate home/away fixtures every year). Top two teams into AI Sf’s. Teams 3-6 in AI QF’s. Winners promoted to Senior Championship. Teams 7-10 in Intermediate Shield playoffs. Teams 11 & 12 in relegation playoff.

Junior AI Championship - 11 teams, round robin format, 10 games each (teams alternate home/away fixtures every year). Top two teams into AI Sf’s. Teams 3-6 in AI QF’s. Winners promoted to Intermediate Championship. Teams 7-11 in Junior Shield playoff.

National Cup – Knockout competition based on provinces. 8 teams in Leinster, with losing QF teams in National Shield relegation playoffs. Cup is based on the first backdoor model (Leinster & Munster finalists meet Galway & Ulster champions in QF’s).

National Shield – Open draw knockout competition for all teams not competing in National Cup.

AI Club Shield - With the move towards a split season, I would also encourage every county to have a hurling league between the months of January and July. The winners of these county leagues would then alter an All-Ireland Club Shield competition which would be played at the same time as the AI Club Championships. If a club wins both the county league and county championship, then the runner up of the county league would take the place in the AI Club Shield. This would give real meaning to the county leagues, as well as provide clubs with a second chance at an AI title. Leagues would have to have a minimum of 5-6 games per club to be eligible for the AI Club Shield.

Rule Changes

- Sliothars designed in such a way they can’t travel as far.

- Smaller and standard hurl size.

- No direct catching from a handpass (can control on the hurl, or if the sliothar hits off an intermediary ie another player, bounces on the ground). This allows for the handpass when in trouble, but should limit the effects of the constant throwing that is so prevalent these days.

- Change the ruling of the granting of a 65 yard free. 99 times out of 100 a 65 comes from either a save or good defending. Granting a 65 these days is essentially a punishment of good defending. It’s replaced with either a) an indirect free from the 65 or b) has to be taken from the ground like a sideline cut.

- Squad numbers. Each county has to submit squad numbers for the year, with players assigned that number for the year.

Dyr · 17-11-2021 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118173340#Comment_118173340

Recieve the handpass on the hurl would be better, stop lads playing rugby with sliotars.

Realt Dearg Sec · 18-11-2021 1:37am

There seems to be two different issues being discussed here, one is lads throwing instead of handpassing, while the other is over reliance on the handpass to maintain possession, and they're getting conflated in the conversation. Like having to receive the pass on the hurl doesn't solve the throwing issue.

I actually feel like I'm the only person who really doesn't think throwing of hand passes isn't that big of a problem, but it seems like it can be solved by just enforcing a proper striking motion with the hand.

I like the idea of things like having to take the pass on the hurl etc but it seems like it would massively reward crowding out the player in possession. All a team would need to do is bottle a player up and they'd be nearly guaranteed a free or a handy dispossession every time, because there's no way to get the ball out of you're double marked for example. Would lead to some very ugly, negative hurling.

Could always try it out in a thing like the Walsh cup I suppose but the gaa seem to think that all new rules just be tried in the inter county national league before they can ever be tried anywhere else.

Davys Fits · 18-11-2021 7:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118184018#Comment_118184018

There is no such thing as a proper striking motion of the ball because what you see as clear may not be clear to others and the whole thing comes down to interpretation. Therein lies the problem.

I dont agree that it will reward overcrowding. It will reward the player who uses the hurley to block or hook the player in possession. The overcrowding rucks and free hand fouls we are seeing at the moment is in my opinion because players have little options to stop a thrown handpass. Instead they swarm the player with hands and the whole thing gets ugly. Maybe it would encourage a small bit of ground hurling to remove the ball from rucks before gaining possession in the hand.

big_drive · 18-11-2021 8:33pm

Ok here's one, would just letting players throw the ball make a difference? Just get rid of hand pass altogether

Would we be losing much of a skill?

I've no strong views myself on it, just popped into my head now. Haven't thought what may be the advantages, disadvantages it would bring

Realt Dearg Sec · 18-11-2021 8:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118187929#Comment_118187929

Would be a major problem because I could catch the ball and throw it overarm, underarm, whatever way I want, to move the ball up the field. A good strong throw could easily travel 20 or 30 yards and wouldn't require an ounce of skill, and would be impossible to block. At least when lads have to pretend to strike it they aren't able to wind up or put the strength of their arm behind a throw as much.

C4000 · 18-11-2021 11:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118180513#Comment_118180513

Great point on the 65s.

Davys Fits · 18-11-2021 11:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118187929#Comment_118187929

Correct. You havent thought about it and dont care really.

Hurling people sometimes called hurling snobs pride ourselves in the skills and artistry of the game. Allowing throws would damage the integrity of the game.

Realt Dearg Sec · 19-11-2021 3:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118189016#Comment_118189016

No need to be rude about it in fairness

Davys Fits · 26-11-2021 9:04am

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/would-cutting-back-on-hand-passes-make-for-better-hurling-1.4739301

Sunny Disposition · 26-11-2021 10:03am

That's a very good proposal.

Hurling is in a difficult moment, but there are things that can be done and that's one. There will be a need to have the resolve to face down those who criticise it though.

thesultan · 26-11-2021 11:10am

I bring in a rule that you have to pull on a clash ball. It was a very exciting part of the game thay seems lost.

Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

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