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The Irish protocol.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I appreciate your discussion but I would ask you to try to get in the shoes of ni unionists.

    how would you feel if Ireland voted as a nation to leave the Eu and if Uk encouraged Eu to insist that there be border checks between ulster and the other 23 counties because they are worried that your dodgy goods could leak into the uk from Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan. Permanent border posts should be established around the 9 counties and paracetamol from the rest of Ireland could not be sold in the supermarkets in those 3 counties. You would need pets vaccinated for rabies before they can travel from Meath to Monaghan. Sausages made in Louth couldn’t be sold in Cavan, etc, etc, etc.

    theresa May would have been at dinners in Eu holding up photos of the Dublin bombings and say this is what will happen if you put the border around the Uk jurisdiction instead of splitting the 3 ulster counties off from the other 23

    would you be opposing it or just saying “ah sure it’s fine”?

    oh, and in that scenario, Uk would keep reminding you that a slight majority in the 3 Irish counties in ulster had voted to stay in the Eu, so sure they wouldn’t mind the checks between them and the other 23.

    …and the Ecj would also have some control in Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal

    I could keep adding issues if you haven’t got it yet ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,641 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It's hardly the IRFU's fault. And certainly not Ireland's.

    The constraints here are:

    1. None of the English, Scottish or Welsh Rugby Unions flies the union flag, since they don't (and can't) claim to represent the UK. The IRFU can't fly it either, for the same reason.
    2. Northern Ireland doesn't have a flag, officially. The old "red hand" flag (St. George's cross, six-pointed star, crown) has had no official status since the abolition of the old Government of Northern Ireland, in 1973. It was only ever the flag of the Government of Northern Ireland, not the flag of Northern Ireland itself.
    3. The Northern Ireland Assembly doesn't have a flag, but it does have a badge - a stylised representation of the linen plant with six flowers, in cornflower blue. It can be displayed on a banner, and used as a flag, and I think is so used on the Stormont building on days when the Assembly is sitting. But it isn't officially a flag of Northern Ireland, and isn't in popular use as a symbol of NI. I think most people wouldn't recognise it, even in NI.

    In short, the only official flag in NI is the union flag, and the IRFU can't appropriately display that. NI can't really object to the non-display of its flag when it hasn't got one. And it hasn't got one, of course, because the necessary consensus in the Assembly to adopt one doesn't exist. This isn't a situation of the IRFU's making.



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'd question how the rest of my own country could care so little about us in Monaghan that they would with apparent certainty, land us with a border.

    I'd be very angry if the solution to no border was thrown away so that people in Cork could sign trade deals with the rest of the world while I was behind a now a certain border.

    And I'd be furious if I realised it was my own representatives in Monaghan who scuppered that miracle solution.


    The UK can at any moment get rid of all problems in Northern Ireland by aligning with it. The problem exists within its own borders and it voted for all of this in the first place, so it should be the one who takes the obvious steps to solve the problem. Your blaming of the EU is ridiculous.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Tbh until recent years I didn’t know and we would have referred to it as green white and gold; indeed I would rarely hear it described as gw&o in my community. Very interesting what a poster put up about it being us distancing from it by not recognising the orange. Makes sense but is so far in history we are unaware, if that is the case.

    I have nationalist friends who would often change the words of the Sash to “it’s green and white with a big yellow stripe”. I must remind them it’s not yellow 🙂



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    So, the the hypothetical scenario, the Uk would be telling Ireland it could be solved if the 23 counties would just align with the 3 Irish ulster counties - sorted. Sure who cares about the democratic decisions of Ireland.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I’d like you to be a bit more realistic. This is just full of red herrings and hypocrisy.

    Every sport representing NI use the red and white ulster flag to represent us. Catholics like rory mcillroy hold it up with pride when they win, etc. It is defacto the official sporting flag of NI.

    do you really think irfu would not be allowed to fly the white ulster flag beside the tricolour?

    why are they allowed to fly the irfu flag?

    why did they change and fly the tricolour instead of the irfu?

    let’s have a little more integrity with each other in the discussion.

    it would be like the British and Irish lions flying the union flag alongside the st Patrick’s cross at all games and saying that’s us sorted now.

    Post edited by downcow on


  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If Ireland was stupid enough to even hold a referendum that would cause immediate and obvious issues with border counties and Northern Ireland, then yes, I would expect that the UK would be telling Ireland to find a solution that satisfies the democratic wishes of the country and respects the GFA and CTA.

    That your own population voted for something that would harm you is not Ireland's concern. Solutions were found and squandered. The backstop satisfied the electorate's wish to leave the EU. Staying in the SM and CU was always on the cards pre-referendum.

    You genuinely think the cost of England's vote should be paid for by Ireland and EU, and you don't even care if you are collateral damage. It's absurd.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Please don't defile the term 'Ulster' by trying to associate it with that defunct sectarian flag.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Here is a nationalist journalist confirming that loyalist leaders have been trying to lesson street disturbances, even though many on here are accusing them of encouraging same.

    how long can they keep a lid on it?

    https://twitter.com/BelTel/status/1460534355089104897?s=20



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,794 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    It's not that easy to be honest. The IRFU should only fly the IRFU flag. You cant claim to represent two countries equally and only fly the flag of one. There are obvious reasons why they dont fly both since Northern Ireland doesnt have a flag but then the tricolour shouldn't be flown either.

    On that, why do Northern Ireland still sing God save the Queen as the national anthem? Since they are an all inclusive team as Downcow likes to say then why do they sing a song that alienates one section of the country?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,282 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    They don't claim to represent the 2 countries they specifically represent the 4 provinces and Island of Ireland. Id guess the tricolour is flown in Landsdowne for procedural reasons as much as anything else as either the president or a representative for them is always present for games and therefore it is probably required.

    I dont think its the IRFUs fault that there is no country flag for NI though, maybe DC should get in touch with his MLA if he feels this strongly about it and ask them to try come to a consensus on one in stormont, they love flags up there im sure it would be a great project for them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    More red herrings.

    i have pointed out that the irfu flag is not the flag of a country and it can be used quite happily, so your excuse is in tatters.

    some of you guys don’t like the hypocrisy pointed out.

    i have no problem with the 26 counties plus ni nationalists and a few unionists grammar school rugger boys getting together and bigging it up and enjoying themselves. Get on with it and have a great time, but don’t tell me I have to join in the party with only dares to acknowledge one of the countries who form the two-country team. You should have to score double points to win a game since every other team you play is just one country 🙂



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I agree 100% with you on both counts.

    I have disclosed before here that I have worked for many years to stop gstq being played at ni games. It is my anthem and I love it, and indeed the official anthem of the whole of the Uk, but I hate to see it played at Windsor.

    the other night when Italy were there it made the hair stand on the necks of most unionist as it was sung by an opera singer in a full ni kit. It was beautiful but I respect and adore the nationalist players in the team and for that reason I don’t want it played.

    I have written endless emails, phone calls etc to the ifa and I have reported them to uefa on this exact point and accused them of sectarianism. All to no avail so far.

    dont misrepresent me around OWC team inclusiveness. Let me be clear. The selection of the team is totally inclusive. We have been a model of addressing sectarianism as a fanbase. We are not perfect and need to continue the work. Unfortunately some grey suits think about our team like some posters on here think about irfu ie let’s pretend everything is fine and bury our heads.



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Does rugby have anything to do with the NIP? Like could the team fall apart without it or something?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Total cop out. The same sort of nonsense the NI grey suits would say about playing gstq at Windsor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,794 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    If you claim to represent only the island of Ireland and the 4 provinces then that's fine. But don't fly the flag of only one country on that island. The IRFU should have no boundaries to getting someone to play for the team and like it or not flying only one of the flags can be a boundary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,741 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Northern Ireland doesn't have a flag and nobody plays as the 'UK'. The players are from Ulster which is a province of 'Ireland'. There is no distinction made between Tommy Bowe or Rory Best both proud former members of the squad.

    The desire for belligerents to destroy Ireland working as an island says a lot. The same sort of jealousy and bitterness is why the Protocol is where it is and why Unionism is in the cul de sac that it is in too. People can see with their own eyes what works n this island.



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Downcow, if the UK was still in the EU, and Ireland voted to leave, how do you think Ireland would get on if it said it wasn't going to put a border between Ireland and Northern Ireland and was just going to diverge and the UK could put one up if it wanted?

    That situation if allowed to develop would force the same border between NI and GB as there is now if the UK wanted to protect the integrity of the EU market it was in. Or it would force a land border. It is a perfect mirror of what the UK thought it might be able to pull off, forcing Ireland to put a border in the sea between it and the rest of the EU.

    I'm sure you would find the idea that you could be forced out of a market when you didn't even vote on anything pretty abhorrent. It would be perfectly obvious to you that Ireland's democratic wishes came at a cost and they should stay in the CU to avoid borders.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,641 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I'll be honest with you; I struggle to get excited about representative sports or sportsmen. What they do on the field of play is of some interest if you are interested in the sport concerned; I'm mostly not interested. What they do before kick-off or after the final whistle is of no significance to anyone other than themselves.

    So, on the matter of what flags or badges the IRFU (or any other sporting organisation or team) uses — the choices they make may tell us something about the IRFU , but I don't care about the IRFU; why would I? It's hard to see, though, how it can tell us much of any interest about Ireland, or Northern Ireland, or nationalism, or republicanism, or unionism, or loyalism; the IRFU does not speak for any of these entities or movements.

    People's reaction to the choices the IRFU makes - your reaction, my reaction, anyone's - tells us more about the people concerned than it does about the IRFU.

    My guess would be that, if the IRFU has opted not to adopt the old red hand banner as the symbol of its connection with NI, that's likely to because they perceive that flag to be itself a divisive symbol in NI. Your upset at their failure to use the red hand banner may reflect a deeper upset at the fact that it's a divisive flag, or it may reflect a rejection or denial of the idea that it is divisive. But the fact that there is no uncontested flag to represent NI, and the Assembly has been unable (or unwilling?) to adopt one, suggests that the IRFU's wariness about adopting it is not entirely without foundation.

    My own position would be (for the reason stated in my first paragraph) to be unbothered by this. The IRFU may be right in thinking that the red hand flag is divisive, or they may be wrong. Who cares? Why does it matter whether the IRFU's political antennae are well-tuned or not? They have no political role or authority. Myself, I think they should have stuck with the four provinces banner and I don't really know why they didn't. But, if they have made the wrong choice here, so what?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Fair comment. Most of it I get and there is learning in it for me.

    tbh I had not considered the impact it might have on northern nationalists if the ni representative flag was used - but I did think they would be happy if the tricolour was there.

    I could support the Irish rugby team if there was either an acknowledgment of the two countries and the peoples who make up the team or else no nationalistic trappings around it at all.

    I think that is not unreasonable - but some can call me rabidly sectarian for holding that view 🤔



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,741 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Once again, even when pressed, Frost fails to produce any evidence of 'division' on the effects of the Protocol. Really isn't good enough. He is over here (like Boris came) and his intention is once again to bluster and talk the fighting talk to appease Unionism and Unionism will once again buy into it and get sold down the river some more.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Does world rugby have a rule that an official flag of a country has to be used? If not there is no reason why they can't just have an all Ireland flag. Two flags for one team is stupid anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    But then you lose the NIP and its economic benefits. Miniegg post was about the benefits the NIP will bring and that the only down sides are of a few checks in the sea. But if you move these checks to land then goes the unique economic advantage that the NIP brings as it is no longer needed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭KildareP


    That's OK, that angle can be sold as the EU choosing to punish NI/make a political pawn out of NI/support Irish nationalists by forcing them out of the single market because NI stood up to the NIP. Not because NI argued to place itself on the other side of a border and wanted the exact same Brexit as GB, no no no.

    Honestly, they have an answer for everything but a solution for nothing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭Choochtown



    I long for a time when a journalist will be referred to as "a journalist" rather than "a nationalist journalist"



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭fash


    UK was perfectly free to not accept Ireland/EU's offer of the NIP guarantees in exchange for a withdrawal agreement. In any case, if you don't agree with the democratic decision of the UK to brexit & to endorse Johnson & his agreement, you can always vote for a United Ireland, where your voice & your opinion will obviously be more valued than it is by the English.

    You know it makes sense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I’m not that into rugby but I understand that is what the irfu flag is. And in fairness, like every organisation, there are progressive people and dinosaurs. Lots of good moves forward happens with the flag and the sporting anthem but the dinasaurs are still going backwards with the insistence on tricolour and ss in Dublin, resisting even small games being played in the north and reintroducing the tricolour at away games.

    but more power to the progressive types involved



  • Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Miniegg


    I dunno, you act as though this type of Brexit is something you all voted for - a sect of what seems to be incredibly dodgy English politicians, who are stoking English fears of old enemies in Europe, are driving it.

    Let's say it was 5 years ago and the party in power in Germany decided it wanted the UK out of the EU for whatever reason, and a referendum was called. They then proceeded to spread lies about the UK, which were lapped up . Even though Ireland voted for the UK to remain, the EU voted them out. The UK responds to this by demanding secure borders from the EU to protect its markets.


    In that scenario I would feel completely betrayed by those German politicians for their lies and selfishness. They wanted this for personal reasons, didn't give a jot about Ireland, and wouldn't have to live with the consequences of living on a small island that has seen more than its fair share of sadness, misery and violence.


    In such a scenario I'd accept checks between Ireland and the EU to ensure the status quo on the island is maintained and a hard border avoided. That is before we get to the lucrative potential of being the only country able to trade with both blocs.

    Lastly I certainly wouldn't blame the UK for the situation German politicians put us in



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    We are also perfectly free to go after what we want



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  • Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Miniegg


    Also not sure what you mean by Theresa May showing pictures of Dublin bombings, what does that have to do with anything?



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