Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

The HSE is there to protect us not the other way around. What do we do when the country is economically destroyed by restrictions?

You do know our hospitals have been less full this year than they were at the same time in 2019, right?

So put the COVID patients on trolleys in the hallways as we did in 2019 when over capacity?

I like the Singapore approach.

Want to go into a workplace ? Get a jab. Don't have one ? Pay for a test each day at your own expense.

Don't have a jab but you have caught Covid ? You can pay your own hospital fees.

Enforcement is the key. People have to be forced. Is it nice ? No it is not. But it is necessary. These are not normal times, and normal freedoms do not exist at this point in time.

That way things can be kept open.

Lockdowns do not help people that are following the rules.

Not just 2019 either.

Maybe don't put thousands patients on trolleys in the hallways for decades and actually invest in the health system.

BTW there were 2300 patients on trolleys the first week of the month.

The new restrictions put in place are largely only for those who are vaccinated (specifically, new restrictions on bars, nightclubs and restaurants). Why is that?

Lesson I learned during first lockdown – it is absolutely unfair to impose any restrictions on children in terms of outside play (with anyone), inside play (with close friends) and any sport. I will not be adhering to any advice regarding toning down play dates etc. How dare Norma Foley even suggest this.

School is also critical to their development, much more than can be quantified in terms of actual learning. I would absolutely hate to see schools revert to that piece of crap known as online learning.

The government has only added about 60 ICU beds total to our capacity in the last 20 months. We needed about 500 ICU beds for our population even without corona (this is what having the EU per capita average would have us at), but we only we had approx 240 in early 2020. So we're still nowhere near there. The problem is this lack of hospital capacity.

The government has at no time prioritized massive expansion of ICU capacity, because they in 2020 put all their eggs in the "locking down will get rid of covid" strategy. And in 2021 in "locking down until we're fully vaccinated will get rid of covid". They quite clearly never planned for the long term. Even in budget 2022, released only a few weeks ago in early October, they only dedicated €10mn (not billion) to expanding ICU capacity, planning to only add 18 beds (not a typo) in all of 2022. Which is absolutely ludicrous given the billions devoted to other aspects of the pandemic - almost €10billion on the PUP alone.

We have 4 ex ministers for health in government currently, including our Taoiseach and Tanaiste. So they're terrified of the public asking why the public healthcare system was let become so run down over the last two decades, because the answer is their mismanagement. Hence all the focus in recent weeks on blaming the unvaccinated, British people, the pubs, young people, barbers... anything that helps distract the public from realising whos at fault here.

Vaccination will not bring this to an end. Singapore is struggling, and Gibraltar (100% vaccinated, >20% boosters) have cancelled christmas due to rising covid

Sure, but that's of no help today, remember at next election time to not only vote for those who say they will fix health, but have an actual plan that includes restructuring, to do it.

Yes, that moment was back in August when we had high vax rates and low cases or next Spring, that moment isn't in the middle of Winter (which is why an October/November reopening was a dumb decision). And, to be fair, we're talking, right now, about a few extra restrictions after being largely unrestricted (phased return to work was the only thing left really), it will be interesting if more will be needed. And it's really important to understand that the government is taking hospital capacity into consideration when doing this, they no more wanted new restrictions then anyone as it's toxic electorally, the hurlers from the ditch are never able to make that decision (because the only alternative is to deny treatment to people, which they don't want to type out for others to see).

Well, they have given us vaccines which work! The UK has already approved one anti-viral pill.

work away and your a great person

But we have never actually tested that capacity or displayed any level of balanced risk appetite in doing so. In almost all instances, the second things are reopened the government appears to act as if a spike in cases is a complete shock — and the worst case scenario projections are taken as being effectively invariably correct and it’s straight back to restricting things again. We are simply reminded, again and again, of a spectre of Covid collapsing the health system and this spectre is used to justify caution. And when things are reopened, instead of pushing the risk appetite upwards — it is kept low to the point that no tentative risk will be accepted.

The hurlers from the ditch, who you criticise, were the very people lambasting the government for its abundance of caution all through the majority of 2021. The hurlers from the ditch, in that instance, were correct — and you say so yourself. But the hurlers from the ditch were batted aside with the very same arguments you pursue now — that the risk is too great and it’s all too easy for the people who don’t have to make the calls to bandy about their views.

At some stage, the spike will have to simply be accepted and endured, but the cautious approach always seems to find a way of saying that the risk is too great — and your own post tacitly concedes that point.

Right now we treat people in hospital beds and then they die after treatment (and treatment is stopped if it's clear someone isn't going to make it). If we bump up against our capacity limits, then we have to deny hospital beds to certain groups (and this can take the form of not moving people to hospital in the first place), but you need to have a process in place to do this and decision on who gets to have treatment and who doesn't, it sounds like you're OK with that, but that is you being OK with denying treatment to groups of people. When that group was the unvaccinated people were aghast, now that it's old people, are you OK with that?

edit: I would add that you're the first person to put this into print, it's an answer that many others keep avoiding and try and blame the government or the health system or other posters for. But just to be clear, you're saying that if an elderly person needs a bed in a hospital, you are OK with saying that there is no bed available for them and leaving them be (or giving non-hospital treatment).

Without the vaccine rollout, the numbers would be stratospheric were society to fully reopen (even the UK realised that early on). The hurlers from the ditch want all restrictions gone today and the consequence of that will be that lots of people who would have lived through hospital treatment will die instead. I'm suggesting that the time for dropping restrictions this year is passed (and it was only from August that we had high enough vax rates to avoid really high numbers) and the next opportunity will be Spring. If you are saying that time is today, you have to be able to say, like titan18 seems to have done, that certain groups, if sick from COVID, and if hospitals are at capacity, won't get treated.

We may get to that point with the current restrictions anyway, but we'll get there much much faster without them (unless you believe that restrictions have no effect, but we know they do so it's impossible to argue with someone of that viewpoint because the entire viewpoint is built on a lie, which they'll try and deny).