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Kyle Rittenhouse found not guilty

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You left out the part where he was attacked first, convenient to your world view I suppose.



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,721 ✭✭✭✭~Rebel~


    One could argue that by going, armed and antagonistic, to confront some protestors, that he was purposefully creating a situation whereby he could 'stand his ground' and kill some folks.

    It also has to be asked what level of threat to yourself justifies murdering someone? Like, if you give me a dig, am I now allowed to shoot you with an assault rifle?

    It's very hard to stomach someone getting off with 'self defence' when they've purposefully gone very far out of their way to enter a conflict that had nothing to do with them, armed with a machine that exists solely to absolutely decimate living creatures. Was someone who hit him with a skateboard not the one actually acting in self defence, from this kid waving around a massive fcking gun, with a clearly itchy trigger finger? I mean, the Trayvon Martin case already taught us that you don't need to be attacked first to feel threatened and act in self defence, and stand your ground, right?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You see I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion but your premise. He wasn't going out antagonstic to confront protestors according to the evidence of the trial(photos, video, testimony) he was there offering medical assistance and trying to defend the city from destruction. He also had medical supplies with him.

    When you factor this new information in, does your conclusion remain the same? The police and national guard were absent, and the city burned the night before. Many people were 'called upon' so to speak to help protect the city. There were many people walking around with guns that night. Rittenhouse was stupid because he was a soft target with a gun, that was his mistake, as well as getting separated from the guys he was with. If he was 10 years older and much bigger then Rosenbaum probably wouldn't have attacked him.

    The prosecution argued that Rittenhouse provoked the situation, unsuccesfully many have concluded. Their evidence for this rested on the controversial FBI drone footage spoken about at length already in the thread. Their case of 'provocation' rested on one blurry image that they suggested showed Rittenhouse aim his gun at Rosenbaum first.

    Do you think Rittenhouse provoked the situation just by his lawful presence of being there with a rifle? I mean we don't tell women that go to nightclubs that they shouldn't dress a certain way for fear of being attacked etc.. People are free to exercise their rights. Rittenhouse wasn't seen intimidating, threatening, harassing anyone, actually it was quite the opposite. As he wheeled a burning dumpster in from the road he acted very calmly and basically ignored people that were shouting threats at him, before walking off.

    Rosenbaum threatened his life earlier that night and was seen with a chain, Rittenhouse didn't shoot him until Rosenbaum chased him to a place where Rittenhouse said he could run no more. Rosenbaum's hand had gunpowder on it suggesting he was reaching for Rittenhouse's weapon at the time.

    Grosskreutz didn't lose his arm until he pointed his gun at Rittenhouse first, as he admitted in trial. Huber attacked him with a skateboard. I genuinely feel bad for these two poor guys, but I don't blame Rittenhouse. I blame the person who fired the first shot heard in the recording that night (still unidentified), I blame the protests that were there that night, I blame the lack of leadership of the city which refused the help from the national guard, I blame the media for drumming up falsehoods connecting to such stories as Jacob blake, I blame the person who shouted 'active shooter'. Because without all of those things, Huber, Grosskreutz and Rittenhouse wouldn't have been there that night. Once they heard 'active shooter' I'm sure they were doing what they thought to be heroic. They were hyper up, incensed about racial inequality, incensed about guns, and mob mentality being what it is, no critical thinking is applied. They attacked Rittenhouse first, that they thought they were being heroic is the kicker. It's so sad. Rosenbaum I have no sympathy for whatsoever.

    From the time Rosenbaum attacked Rittenhouse to the 'hands-up' event was less than 3 minutes(all three shootings). He was running to the police after he shot Rosenbaum. Did you know that?

    The worst part about this story isn't even that it could have be written by one of the great Greek authors of tragedy, but that the media have lied from the beginning and now that the verdict is out are still doubling down on their lies to further a political narrative.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    One could also argue that by attacking someone with a gun, you're creating a situation where you're going to get killed.

    Generally speaking, it's an inadvisable course of action (I would also argue that arson etc are also inadvisable, but that's not really relevant to a shooting incident).



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,685 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


     But 'disagreeing with the use of the exemption to dismiss the charge' will require some explanation.

    It really only requires explanation if you are against the concept of legitimate control on children having access to lethal weapons. I am not against such a concept.

    I'm not sure I buy the story that Rittenhouse had explored the legality of holding such a gun in advance of doing so, all the armchair experts knew he was legally entitled to do so and yet it took until just before closing arguments for a defense motion to have the charge dismissed.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Doesn't matter if he explored it or not. It's either legal or it isn't, don't confuse the concept of prohibiting juveniles from having access to guns with application of the written statute. The judge himself said he didn't really look into the statute in depth until the closing arguments, though he did say at the very beginning that upon initial reading he was inclined to dismiss and would return to the topic later.



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Rittenhouse and his friend both testified that Rittenhouse had give his friend the money to buy the gun, and the friend would then hold it in trust and allow him to use it periodically for trap shooting, hunting etc. until Rittenhouse turned 18, by which time the gun license he had applied for in Illinois would have come through. There are several pictures of Rittenhouse having guns in his possession when he was younger. Whatever you think of guns and gun culture in general, I don't think it's a stretch at all to imagine that he knew the law as it pertained to him. The same way that someone who fishes knows about fishing licenses and laws but someone who's never fished probably doesn't.

    As for the fact that the motion to dismiss the possession charge wasn't brought until the end, that is simply strategically astute. Had the prosecution hinged much of their arguments on him "illegally" possessing the gun, the defence would have had that to point at to persuade the jury of the prosecution's dishonesty. Had the jury returned any verdict other than full acquittal, then the inclusion of the firearm charge despite the prosecution obviously knowing that it was legal for Rittenhouse to possess (given their complete lack of pushback against the motion) could have been used as evidence of malicious prosecution/prosecutorial misconduct. It is the responsibility of the prosecution to prove their case. The defendant has a presumption of innocence, and the prosecutor's job is to seek justice under the law, not prosecution. They don't get to throw the whole law book at him and then dance around to see what they can make stick after the fact, and people ostensibly on the "left" used to understand this.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Did one of the people he shot actually admit that he pointed his gun at Kyle first? After chasing him? And said this to the prosecution?



  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Shao Kahn


    You seem to be another person, who is trying to pluck Rittenhouse from the environment and culture he was actually in on that night, and transport him to another part of the world with different laws and culture. And then make a moral / legal judgement based on that.

    But that's not how it works.

    A lot of posts like yours (just like the biased media reporting), are trying to paint a narrative that Kyle was the only guy running around with a gun. That is complete BS.

    Guns were EVERYWHERE that night. The police had them, the national guard had them, the mob that was burning the city down had them. And many of the people chasing Rittenhouse had them. People were firing off shots into the air, as Rittenhouse was running away. He had a gun aimed at his head by Grossgreutz, a man with a criminal record and no legal right to have said gun!

    Don't forget that part btw, Rittenhouse was RUNNING AWAY. He wasn't running towards people trying to engage them in a gun battle.

    As regards standing your ground. There is nothing implicit in that regard, which indicates that you want to kill anyone. Nobody got killed because this kid was "standing his ground" outside a business premises. They got killed because they chased him and tried beat the sh!t out of him.

    And he didn't just get a "dig to the head" either. He was being mobbed by a very angry and dangerous group of people (we've seen some of their criminal rap sheets). He was punched to the ground, kicked in the head, whacked over the head with a skateboard. And based on riots in other areas of the country, we can see that people were getting beaten unconscious and left in a heap on the ground.

    It's actually impressive that he was still fully conscious after being kicked in the head, and hit over the head with a very solid piece of wood. To then expect that he should just "take a beating" like the prosecutors suggested, is bullsh!t. Many people have died from taking such a heavy beating. Many people have died even from just one punch, and whacking their head off the pavement.

    It's not our culture. Based on where he lives, and their laws, he defended himself against a serious threat to his well being and possibly his life. And considering he was completely outnumbered, he did a very impressive job of getting himself out of that situation.

    "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives, and it puts itself into our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    Yes.


    I don't even know how the case went forward, what a waste of money, even without that all they had to do was look at the videos. A kid with a gun running away being attacked and defending himself. Furthermore the prosecution seemingly didn't even know the laws pertaining to possession of an ar-15. Oh yes and trying to implicate guilt because the defendent invoke his constitutional right to silence and of course the video compression shenanigans. Like the prosecution seemed to want a mistrial so that they could blame the judge in the courtroom of public opinion.


    It was a disgrace.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Gaige Grosskreutz was the dude who was shot in the arm. He admitted that he chased Rittenhouse down the street while pulling his pistol, and that Rittenhouse had opportunity to shoot him but didn't do so until he started moving forward, brought his gun arm around and aimed at Rittenhouse.

    It took the defense a long time to drag that out of him and he blatantly lied before being forced to correct himself when shown video evidence on more than one occasion - even by the prosecution who called him. I think that was probably something to do with the $10m civil suit he had pending against the state requiring him to have been squeaky clean at the time of his injury.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So it could never have been guilty. Why are people even surprised by this? Do they think courtrooms work the same way public opinion works on twitter?

    A black teenager being targeted by a mob and then managing to defend himself would hailed as a hero. It's so stupid and political.



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Because fear-and-clicks driven corporate media companies in America have driven a minority of the population to a place where they are pathologically incapable of having or applying principles outside of a very simplistic and damaging "them bad, us good" narrative.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The prosecution called him a coward for not using his fists to fight his way out?

    I wish I had followed this more. I love stupid stuff.



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What.. The.. Fuk..



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Yup. And then a news story from 2015 where a man died after being struck on the head with a skateboard during a fight started circulating on social media.

    I think the line of the entire trial was probably Kraus: "Everyone takes a beating sometimes, right?"

    Just the absolute tone deafness of telling local people who watched a poor community with a large minority population burn down at the hands of out-of-town rioters just over a year ago that "take a beating" is the proper order of things is just incredible.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,310 ✭✭✭MonkieSocks


    Any why did Gaige Grosskreutz bring a gun with him to the protest?

    =(:-) Me? I know who I am. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude (-:)=



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The entire argument against him by people who think he's guilty is that he shouldn't have been there.

    It's a lot easier to argue that he should be there than argue that the other people with weapons rioting and burning down a city should have been there.

    How is that he is provoking the situation, when his presence was a direct response to rioting in a city 20 miles from his home?



    It was remarkable to see so many people support the burning of cities across America. I guess it's not that surprising that they think the rioters had more rights to be on the streets with weapons than anyone else did.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    now just imagine what would have happened if there were no video evidence



  • Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭Sadler Peak


    Such great news to wake up to.


    The usual are outraged it's get to watch.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Actually, I think it's a little different this time. I've seen a lot of people watch what's happened through the trial and suddenly realise that they have been incessantly lied to for over a year, lead to believe that a white supremacist thug took to a peaceful BLM protest and gunned down three black people for **** and giggles, and for many of them the scales have fallen from their eyes.

    There will be some people who will maintain those beliefs, either because they genuinely can't handle the pain of the cognitive dissonance they experience when confronted with the truth, so they turn away, or because they are politically married to their own special version of events.

    Even CNN, presumably because they're **** themselves over possible defamation suits, reported the actual facts of the case today.

    Imagine what that must do to someone. For a year you've watched as the people you trust for information every day tell you that a white supremacist went to hunt black people, reaching a fever pitch over the last couple of weeks where you have been told that the judge is a crooked racist and over and over again you've seen "legal experts" and "justice activists" invited on to be interviewed to reinforce this message for you. White supremacist. Racist. Gunned down innocent black people. Crossed state lines (!) with an illegal AR15. And on and on and on it goes. This is the narrative you are being spoonfed, bit by bit.

    You might even be aware of people being banned from social media for saying that he was innocent. You might have been reassured, by GoFundMe taking down the fundraiser for Rittenhouse's defence (while leaving similar funds for violent looters and rioters in place) that the narrative had to be true. These are the little dabs of a napkin against the sides of your overflowing mouth as you feast, day after day, week after week, on lies.

    And then comes the verdict.

    Not guilty.

    And to boot, the people who have been feeding you this banquet of bullshit and emotional junk food are now explaining very concisely and clearly what actually happened. He didn't cross state lines with a weapon. He was in Kenosha because his father and many family members live there. He was working there the prior day and had stayed overnight. He was helping clean up graffiti. He was asked to go and help out that night. His was legally allowed to possess the gun. He was attacked before he shot, every time. One of those shot admitted to levelling a gun at his head. The others were seen attacking him on camera. All of those shot were white. It was clear self defence. There was never any white supremacy angle.

    And then, if you have a morsel of self-reflection in you, you have to be thinking; what the hell else have I been lied to about?

    And suddenly you are no longer such an easy dupe.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Basically, it's another Covington. People on this site were calling for their public execution and it was allowed. Literally inciting violence and calling for the heads of teenagers, and then it came out that none of it was what it looked like.

    And then it wasn't allowed to be talked about. It was off-topic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    If you think he should have been found guilty, there are two things going on:

    (1) You don't know the basic facts of the case.

    and/or

    (2) You are an ideologue who simply wants "the other side" to be punished, regardless of what is fair or correct.

    1 is embarrassing, 2 is shameful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    What do you mean travel a great distance? He lives in the town beside Kenosha, he works in Kenosha, and his father lives in Kenosha.

    And why are you pretending he travelled there to shoot people?

    People like you are amazing. We have clear video evidence, and testimony from one of the attackers, that Kyle was being attacked with intent to kill, and you think he should have just accepted his death.

    Disgusting.



  • Registered Users Posts: 467 ✭✭nj27


    Delighted with the verdict! Kyle Rittenhouse: a legend in his own lifetime. Hope he gets paid millions in some defamation lawsuits too. He should go after that decrepit old moron in the white house for some of the things he said, let alone the media.

    Post edited by nj27 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Here's how the narrative is built: bombardment. Almost every corporate news channel, almost every corporate-funded leftwing politics show, every corporate press publication, all coalesced around a narrative, picking their catchphrase as they went. In this case: "He crossed state lines".

    https://youtu.be/hY1eoY_MMco

    The catchphrase is how the propagandists measure the success of their efforts. "Crossing state lines" is a good measurement phrase because it's so obviously not a crime or an immoral/bad act in and of itself. As we've previously discussed, thousands upon thousands of US residents living near state lines cross them every day for work, shopping, leisure activities and so on. So if you can get that in the mix as part of the main messaging on a given event, every time you see "he crossed state lines" in discussions on social media sites, you know that the information those people are working with originated with your propaganda efforts.

    Once you learn to spot the narrative catchphrases it's easier to gage who is working with information they've actual found out for themselves and who is running with a narrative they've been fed.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    They honestly think that the court of social media opinion should be above the law. If they all had their way everyone who committed a crime in the eyes of the mob would be thrown straight into prison, no trial needed. Modern "social justice" doesn't really have much justice.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    That's why "privilege" narratives are so dangerous.

    People are saying "if this kid were black he'd be dead or in jail". And, okay, if you believe that, the answer is "the justice system worked in this situation and we need to make sure it works for everyone", not "we should make sure white boys are dead or in jail, too!"

    Totally backward.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users Posts: 355 ✭✭Moghead


    People like me? You know nothing about me, yet you label me disgusting? Calm down.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Well that poster, much like anyone else reading this thread, knows that you will actively and knowingly lie about very serious subjects. Which some people may find pretty disgusting. 🤷‍♀️

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



This discussion has been closed.
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