Barriers to Passing the Driving Test

L2N · 27-10-2021 6:04pm #1

Hi All,

I am doing some research on the barriers to passing the test and was wondering if you might help.

I am especially interested in hearing from people who have done a test and are not clear on why or how to prepare for the next one.

Any insights appreciated, I look forward to hearing your experiences.

Thanks

J_R · 31-10-2021 6:44am

Hi,

I would say the biggest hurdle is finding a competent instructor. A good instructor is working in partnership with the RSA examiner. The instructor works on the assumption that he is teaching his pupil a lifetime skill, that is safe competent driving. The examiner then merely checks to see if he was successful.

L2N · 03-11-2021 8:16pm

Hi J_R

Thanks for your insight.

I agree that it is hard to find an instructor that works for you. Competence has a few complications. There is indeed a level of variability between the quality of instructors and no one instructor suits every pupil. We all had good and bad teachers in school and we know that the teacher has a big impact on how well you do in a subject. That said,as adults we have to work with people we don't gel with and still produce results.

I believe that there is an important distinction to be made between the goal of the RSA in the test, and the goal of an instructor. The RSA is leagally checking that you know, and can comply with their interpretation of, the rules of the road (plus a few of their own pet requirements). An instructor is focused on good driving and skills as you say.

In my opinion, good driving, however you care to define it, is a very different thing to test driving. In my experience as an instructor, we have no idea what happens in any specific test and we have general guidelines about what the RSA considers to be acceptable driving. Ultimately we each have to make our own interpretation of what this might be.

As there is a large variability in instructors, so too there is a large variation in testers, further complicating effective test preparation.

THANKS and regards

Ubbquittious · 03-11-2021 8:19pm

Nervousness is what fecked me over back in the day on several occasions. I would be grand driving normally but not during a test

The fact that at the time there were huge long waiting lists did not help at all.

Rket4000 · 03-11-2021 8:33pm

I went into my first driving test convinced that I was going to fail. I also knew I wasn't confident at a specific manoeuvre... I actually was doing OK until that manoeuvre turned up in the test and I made a hames of it.. Once that happened I started making minor mistakes. The fail was THAT manoeuvre with minors for the other couple of things. I got a different driving instructor (one that spoke in a language I understood - meaning he explained things much better) who taught me how to understand and do the manoeuvre correctly. The week before the test I just practiced and practiced and practiced - then I went into the test not even willing to consider I'd fail........ Bit of a temporary wobble when I got the same tester (2nd test was only about 6 weeks after the first) but passed the 2nd time.

L2N · 03-11-2021 9:25pm

Congratuations on passing. Nervous drivers have a harder test than people who are not nervous -that's just the nature of the test.

As you say, practicing the manoeuvres that you know you will be asked to do until they hold no fear is critical. Control the things taht you have control of is a great strategy for preparations. It enhances your confidence no end.

StoryBuuud · 09-11-2021 1:23am

I think the fact that the system is not standardised across the board doesn't help. Even in the one test centre, different testers could mark you or not mark you for different things. Hard to make the test completely uniform for everyone though.

I also think that a 30-minute drive with a tester is not that representative of overall ability. You still require some luck to pass (with other road users not messing it up for you by not indicating, etc.). In a perfect world, your instructor could sign off on you being safe to let on the road but that system is not flawless either (open to bribes, favouritisim, etc.).

Personally feel the biggest barrier to me getting my license after failing two tests is that I have nobody to reliably practice with. I own my car but have no reliable driver to accompany me as my parents have passed on. Think the system is built around it being teenagers with a parent who drives as a method to learn. But I can see why you can't let learners drive unaccompanied at the same time.

B!gD0g543 · 09-11-2021 1:30am

I have something small that used to bother me more but now after years of practice it's no big deal.

Here in Las Vegas they stopped the test for parallel parking. But shouldn't this still be on the test especially in a growing city where people parallel park? Just curious your thoughts because my daughter was prepping for her test and she told me if it's not on the test she doesn't need to know how to do it and that agitated me to no end. How absurd is it that if its not in the test you don't need to know it but that's how much of the younger generations are. They are happy to not need to know it and just avoid it all together.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

galwaytt · 09-11-2021 9:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139341#Comment_118139341

...well I have 2 kids go through this, one on 4-wheels, one on 2-wheels (he's now Learning 4-wheels), and what I've learned is that the Driving Test is no measure of the abiliy to drive at all. It is a test to challenge your ability to follow rules. That the rules can be archaic, out of date, or sometimes just plain wrong, not to mention irrelevant is moot. And that's before the vagaries of the Tester come into it.

I have deliberatly NOT tried to 'teach' mine to drive as although driving is My Thing, the system in place is only interested in you 'ticking boxes'. Let them learn to Tick Boxes. Then, once done, then teach them actuall driving. Enrol them on an advanced course or for IAM or RoSPA. A track experience will teach them lots about the dynamics of actual vehicle control & driving.

No point in winding yourself up over trying to change the system. Play the system.

Wheety · 09-11-2021 9:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139333#Comment_118139333

Other drivers doing something wrong can help if your reactions are good. When I did mine, I saw someone reversing out of their drive up ahead and I slowed down and then stopped to let them straighten up and come past me. The tester was impressed with my hazard perception.

L2N · 10-11-2021 2:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139333#Comment_118139333

Hi Thanks for your view. I sympathise with your situation. When a bureaucracy takes on an overseeing role then they "standardise" the hell out of it and create a lot of inefficiencies in the process (look at banks, insurance companies, phone companies, broadband companies etc. The reason is that the rules and systems are self-serving and are focused on imposing their interests and not about providing a customer-friendly service. Their primary interest is to ensure that we fund their empires.

As you wisely observe, testers vary in their application, test conditions vary, weather varies, students vary and get nervous, and I have noticed that a lot of car drivers become aggitated around the full moon. How do you standardise that?

The bottom line is that there is no such thing as a standard test and so luck does play a role. (My estimate is that good drivers have a 50% chance of passing. So if they passed a test, they would likely fail another straight after.) Certainly there are fairer ways to assess drivers, but not everybody will ever agree with it.

With so much expense and restriction around lerarners it makes it really really hard to practice effectively. I would certainly push for a relaxation of the excessive and penal regulations. Why not have the outcome of the test a graded result where you can have stepping stones depending on how you do? For example, if you are OK but still not at 'expert level' then you could be allowed to drive a small capacity car, or even allowed to drive on your own. The only people who would benefit from this are the learners so this is not likely to happen.

I understand your frustrations and see it in many others around me. The systems as it stands is grossly unfair to a large number of drivers. That is what prompted me to create a training programme specifically geared to passing the test and eliminating much of the luck factor. I have to figure out how to market it and ironically, I am in the same situation as many learner drivers in relation to me driving technology... It won't help you get someone to accompany you, but it is intended to help you pass when you do get tested.

L2N · 10-11-2021 2:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139989#Comment_118139989

Well done, doing this in a safe manner is one of the keys to passing.

Wheety · 10-11-2021 3:40pm

Also you can be tactical. While taking lessons I could do the reverse around the corner sometimes and other times I'd be well out. I purposely did it very slowly and got a grade 2 for that. But it was better than getting a grade 3.

L2N · 11-11-2021 1:23pm

Thanks. There is no reason that students should go into the test unable to repeatably do the required manoeuvres. This is definitely something that instructors should be fixing. If you get 9 penalties, each one of those contributed to your failing. You did not fail on just one things as is often portrayed, you failed on 9 things. Don't give away easy-to-fix penalties ever!

L2N · 11-11-2021 1:31pm

I have just found out that there is actually a driving school that is using the same name as me. I have no connection to L2N.ie and all the opinions expressed here are mine alone. He has no connection with this account.

An unfortunate coincidence. However, as he got the name first, I will post under a new username once it is set up.

11-11-2021 1:37pm

Biggest barrier is cost

If you don't have the privilege of someone helping you out, it's madness.

Lessons, if you don't have access to a car only practice is through lessons - even more expensive

Cost renewing learners permit

Extra cost using instructor car for the test

Fail test and repeat all the cost

Social class is the barrier

Alun · 11-11-2021 1:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139869#Comment_118139869

I agree 100% with what you say and your approach to your kids learning to drive.

I learnt to drive waaay back in the mid 70's in the UK, and the driving instructor I had, who had also taught my mother and father and went on to teach my sister as well, was an ex police advanced driving instructor.

He had a somewhat unorthodox approach, and although naturally mainly concentrating on what it took to get me to pass my test, once I had reached a certain level of competency he could detect when I was getting a bit bored with 3 point turns and reversing around a corner, and would announce, "OK, lets go for a spin!". So, off we'd go onto some local bendy B roads and he'd teach me all about setting up for corners, slowing before entry and accelerating out of them, road positioning, observation, hazard perception etc. just like he was used to doing in his old job.

I passed first time, of course!, and after that I did a few extra lessons with him on the motorway, some "spirited" country road driving and some night driving too which really helped a lot.

You only have to observe drivers on the open road here, outside of main urban areas, to realise that the vast majority of them don't have a clue, for example, about how to drive on bendy rural roads, storming into bends and braking halfway round when they start to feel out of control. Not a big problem these days with most cars having fancy stability control etc. but when you learn to drive in a 1964 Ford Anglia, you soon realise that approach will land you in a ditch! Motorway driving is, of course, another one, but I won't even go there ..... :)

galwaytt · 11-11-2021 2:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150924#Comment_118150924

One thing I would say is that driving has changed over time.

So what's changed ?

Well, traffic, for one. The volume, the speed of it, the more confining nature of it with new hazards, particularly in urban environments (cycle lanes, bus lanes etc, escooters etc are all in fact 'new' elements that have come in over time).

The cars are different too. Quieter and more powerful, they now cruise as speeds way above that a new learner would think they're doing, were it not for the speedometer. Consider the early 957cc Mark I Fiesta: With 40bhp it would have been screaming it's head off at 100kph. In other words you were well aware of speed, tied as it is to our perception of it using sound. A modern 1.0 EcoBoost Fiesta on the other hand has more than twice the power at 98bhp, and does 100kph in (relatively speaking), whisper silence. A learner therefore has a lower, or less sense of speed. Add in current car audio and the drivers are further insulated from speed by further isolation of things like roadnoise (NVH). Which all means traffic is moving....faster. Cycle or walk rural roads and you will notice this immediately.

I do think that access to practice is a huge problem - I completely agree. My aforementioned son bought his car, for use soley as L-Plate, so accompanied, for the simple reason NO insurance company would put him either my or his mother's cars as a named driver (2.1 diesels). I would have much rather preferred he be a named driver in mine, get his practice, get his test done (and hopefully passed), before moving on to a car of his own. It would also have been much, much cheaper. There needs to be a way for 'Learner Drivers' to get the practice they need, when the narrow-focus system we have isn't working.

L2N · 16-11-2021 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150924#Comment_118150924

Thanks for your insight. I can only reiterate that the powers-that-be have a particular ideology and that is the only thing they see. The unintended consequences are of no interest.

L2N · 17-11-2021 10:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118139341#Comment_118139341

This is an interesting point that does highlight some of the shortcomings of the test. Too many people see it in terms of: not being able to drive (learner) before the test and suddenly being able to drive after the test (passed). The test is just a mechanism to ensure people are competent 'enough'. No two test are the same, so the test is not standard in its outcomes.

To my mind the test is relatively straightforward for an experienced driver but the way it is administered, they choose to penalise minor mistakes really harshly. This makes it really hard for learners. Should you really fail your test because you didn't indicate or perhaps weren't driving in the 'correct' position?

I know within a couple of minutes if someone is a good driver. However, bureaucracies need paper trails and to be seen as impartial, so tester's judgement is eliminated (in my view) to be replaced with process. As it is administered, bad driver can passing the test -and many do- as long as they don't make too many visible 'mistakes' i.e. deviations from the RSA style of driving.

This is just a characteristic of bureaucracies, process is more important than outcome.

So the test is not any indication of how safe or good a driver you are. Teaching someone to pass the test will not make them a good driver. For me, it is a derogation of responsibility not to teach young driver how to drive fast safely. As Alun and GalwayTT mention, it is really important to train drivers to drive properly, not just for their sake, but for all road users. You will never be a good road user if you only know how to drive slowly. (Don't get me started on speed limits...)

As for young people's attitude, unfortunately all the systems we created replace joy with judgement. Everything they do is structured as pass/ fail, acceptable/unacceptable, good/bad. There are so many regulations and penalties now around driving -not to mention the expense- that it has become a joyless affair. I am not surprised that many people just look at it as a means of getting around.

Imagine if we could have track days as part of the learning process. That would bring some joy back into the skill of driving.

L2N · 20-11-2021 12:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150896#Comment_118150896

Hi All,

I have changed my username to get_test_ready.

I will be opening soon an online course for getting test ready. It focuses specifically on the driving behaviours that get you penalised in the test: no penalties =PASS.

Thank you for your interesting commments and insights.

J_R · 23-11-2021 7:57am

Hi,

Appears that some instructors are now the biggest barrier to passing the driving test.

The most commonest reason for failing the test is now "Position".

See:- https://opac.oireachtas.ie/Data/Library3/Documents%20Laid/2021/pdf/RSAdocslaid310821_310821_124049.pdf

Careful reading of the Rules of the Road, in particular Section 5 would have saved 39% from failing.

And obeying the actual law See https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print

17.—(1) A driver shall drive as near to the left hand side of the roadway as is necessary in order to allow, without danger or inconvenience to traffic or a pedestrian, approaching traffic to pass him on his right and overtaking traffic to overtake him on his right.

Some instructors I believe preach "Drive with your wheel in the center of your lane" 😲

L2N · 23-11-2021 3:01pm

Hi, thanks for your comment. Position is one of those areas that is confusing. As you say the RSA want you to drive quite left in accordance with the legislation.

This is fine if you were the only road user. The problem is that most people don't drive this way (many for good reason) and it is better to stay in the flow of traffic. Blindly obeying the rule actually makes you dangerous in quite a few circumstances.

So from a safety perspective a good rule of thumb is to remain in the flow of traffic -which is often technically out of position. In a test you will be penalised for this depending on the tester you get.

I agree that many instructors seem not to be clear on this distinction. How would an instructor find out about the specific interpretations that the RSA make? To my knowledge, they don't publish their interpretation and only apply them in the test situation -which are effectively secret.

You blame the instructors, but I think the fault lies with the RSA and the blind application of rules. Good driving requires drivers to think and make sound judgements rather than following rules.

It is good to give these issues an airing. Thanks.

J_R · 23-11-2021 11:41pm

Hi,

When I was an instructor, without exception, I started off all my novice learners on a main road for their very first lesson. A nice quiet wide road but a main road nevertheless.

My reasoning being, I did not believe that I could teach them to move off with confidence in the confines of a car park.

Before moving off I would explain about sharing the road, allowing traffic to overtake, and they themselves keeping a safe distance from the left.

So from the very beginning they learned the correct road position.

Same all subsequent lessons, a safe but not excessive distance from the left. They therefore get loads of practice at judging what is a safe distance under varying conditions, speed, weather road, traffic visibility etc.etc.

In the test if they got marked for position it would be for deviating from this line. And if they ever actually got marked for following the safety line I would have no qualms whatsoever in seeking clarification from either RSA HQ or the examiner.

And I would hope that after passing the test that they would continue obeying the law and continue traveling from the left.

24-11-2021 12:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118146816#Comment_118146816

That's interesting. I would have thought that doing the manoeuvre correctly was what was important. I don't think a person should get a grade 2 for doing it correctly, albeit slowly, but I guess it depends how slow slow is.

24-11-2021 12:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196026#Comment_118196026

That's great it'll be a great help to people, good on you. One thing that I found amazing many people struggle with differentiating between left and right, my friend failed hers as she was unable to follow directions - the tester told her afterwards if she was retaking it to ask the tester to make signals to help her

J_R · 24-11-2021 9:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214086#Comment_118214086

Hi.

I had a pupil who had same problem with left and right, told her to tell the examiner. She told me afterwards that during the test when he gave directions go right it would be accompanied by a very large paw (her words) moving across the windscreen to her side, left, paw slow wave across to the left. She had no problem whatsoever following directions (and she passed).

Examiners are more than willing to help. And an examiner said to me once, "Believe it or not we do make allowances for nerves"

mortis43 · 25-11-2021 4:16pm

For me the biggest barrier to passing the test was overworked and overburdened instructors. Particularly my first instructor who was determined to just fly through the curriculum and tick the boxes. Had me doing junctions and busy roads at the end of my first lesson despite me being a late starter to driving and expressly telling him before I booked that I was very nervous. Some might think that being thrown in at the deep end like this would have helped my nerves. It didn’t.

same instructor complained endlessly during the lessons about how busy he was. No time for wife and kids etc. I can only imagine that he rushed through all his other lessons with pupils as well.

my second instructor was much better but still ignored the “night driving” lesson. When I asked about it I was told to pull in and she just explained the different lights to me and when to use them. The “night driving” lesson was still ticked off in my log book. I’ve passed my test now and still anxious about driving at night.

hate to sound like a moan but honestly my experience with driving instructors has been quite poor. Although the three I used were all pleasant and none shouted etc, they all (two in particular) just seemed so darn overworked. First guy in particular would forget what we had covered on the previous lesson and not keep track of anything. Two failed lessons, a “drop down” to automatic, relentless solo practice later I eventually passed.

L2N · 25-11-2021 9:28pm

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I sympathise with you and understand how difficult it is for learners.

One thing I would say is that you should not be intimidated by the tester: ask for clarification if you are not sure or don't understand. You are in charge of your car -not the tester. I used to tell my students to repeat the instruction back pointing in the direction that they are intending to turn.

My experience of the test is that nervous drivers are much more likely to fail, so I don't encourage the thinking that the testers make allowances. The ones more likely to pass are boy racers who tone their driving down for the test. Not scientific, just my experience.

With regard to the quality of driving instructors, the root of the problem imo is that there has been a race to the bottom. You cannot make a living with lessons costing 35euro. The real economic price for lessons is north of 70.

Insurance, car depreciation and running cost can easily be 10K per annum and that's before you pay yourself anything. Having to collect students means you spend half your day driving to and from appointments empty. When an industry gets mcdonified, standards drop.

Anyway, instructors styles are very personal so try different ones -once you have your 12 lessons out of the way- to find the one that works for you. My style was quite direct for people facing into the test because I believe the test to be unforgiving of trivial mistakes.

What I would add for mortis43, is that instructors are not just for test preparation. There are many people who have passed the test and are still nervous or just plain bad drivers. You can still get lessons for night driving for example. I still take lesson to advance my skills.

The current system of the test being the decider about whether you can drive or not is medieval and overdue a progressive rethink.

J_R · 26-11-2021 7:07am

Hi.

But that is another "Rule" that does not make any sense whatsoever . Namely " good rule of thumb is to remain in the flow of traffic"

But what if the lead car in that "Flow" of traffic is driving at ten, twenty even thirty percent below a safe legal speed and is obeying the equally insane "put your wheel in the center of your lane" rule.? It is therefore not a flow, more a trickle This could easy result in a kilometer or two long convoy, each joining car putting its nose under the tail of the sheep in front. This would make overtaking a nightmare. Mad idea, why not obey and teach the actual official rules.

My opinion, following idiotic rules causes accidents and if performed in the driving test will result in a well deserved fail..

J_R · 27-11-2021 9:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118224666#Comment_118224666

Hi,

Sorry, apologize for the last statement, nobody deserves to fail when they were following the instructions of a diving instructor. They were just unlucky to have chosen an ill trained one. Got carried away as a convoy of traffic hogging the center of the road is a pet hate of mine.

Its remarkable that road position has taken such a leap up the rankings, especially as on a vast number of test routes driving with the wheel in the center of the road would just happen to be the correct position for considerable parts of those routes.

Perhaps the RSA realize that it is now almost impossible to overtake on all but dual carriageways and motorways and are attempting to remedy.

The phrasing of the "Rule" should warn people that it is not official. They always use the word "Lane" when they actually mean "road".

Definition of Lane

1.

a narrow road, especially in a rural area.

2.

a division of a road marked off with painted lines and intended to separate single lines of traffic according to speed or direction.

"the car moved into the outside lane"

No painted parallel lines, it is a road and must be shared by all. Travel on the left.

L2N · 16-12-2021 9:02pm

Hi JR

I share some of you peeves.

We have to make a distinction between the test and normal driving. In the test you must demonstrate compliance will the rules and the RSA interpretations. While position is undoubtedly a contentious one, you are also required in the test to drive at the speed limit when it is 'safe'. So slow drivers may get penalised for being tardy -but they might well still pass the test -especially as a large number of the Dublin test roads are now just 30km.

The RSA position to my knowledge is to keep as left as you can in general, and centered in the lane on multi-lane roads.

After people pass the test they either remain frightened of going fast (because they don't know how to drive -in my experience) or they learn to drive normally and keep up with the flow.

I understand the problems of trying to test a skill that is infinitely variable, but a myopic follow-the-rules approach clearly lets bad drivers pass and good drivers fail. But as long as the paperwork is in order and the boxes ticked then the RSA has fulfilled its remit.

The RSA don't make the rules -although they do have a big input. The rules are made by councils and government. There is a concerted effort on their parts to force cars to drive slower and slower with more and more petty regulations and road junk, harshly enforced by bullying/intimidation/exorbitant penalties.

Forcing an ideology and collecting lots of cash on the way does not lead to happy motorists nor safer roads. This is the place where we folk who used to enjoy motoring now find ourselves.

Barriers to Passing the Driving Test

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