The Irish protocol.

downcow · 21-11-2021 7:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118199814#Comment_118199814

I’m not sure guys why you seem to read exactly the opposite of what I write. Last two posts are good examples.

“ you're afraid that the place will suddenly become too expensive for people from England or Ireland to move there”

I said exactly the opposite. It appears already OWC is becoming more attractive, for economic and quality of life reasons, that Irish and English are moving here in increasing numbers. This will inevitably make it more difficult for our young people to set up home.

droidman123 · 21-11-2021 10:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118199948#Comment_118199948

Theres been irish people living in ulster for centuries, you think its only now that they are moving there?

ittakestwo · 21-11-2021 11:10am

Presumably he ment more Irish people moving there from the south.

Judging from the recent economic success of the south then immigration will be from everywhere throughout the world and probably a city like belfast will see the most gains.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2021 12:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118199946#Comment_118199946

Finally an answer.

Ok, back to the original point I made:

Judging from your answers downcow, Unionism is about to split ideologically:

One side believe this:

We require protocols between Uk and Eu. I don’t really care what it is called or if it evolves out of current ni protocol. (Your own words)

and the other believing this:

“The EU far from protecting peace in Northern Ireland has actively endangered it, not least by its irresponsible rewarding of Irish Government threats of violence.

“The Protocol tears up the principle of consent and fundamentally undermines the constitutional position of the United Kingdom.” (Jamie Bryson)

Would that be a fair assessment of the situation?

J Mysterio · 21-11-2021 12:21pm

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. The protocol as it is now is good for the economic outlook, but NI is still a complete basket case.

Also very odd perspective to worry about the economy improving as it might entice people over and increase house prices. That is bizarre.

At any rate, good to see DC admit that the protocol is indeed a positive for NI for "economic and quality of life reasons". If only all Unionists could step back and appreciate that, we could put this nonsense to bed, tell the Tories to fluck off, and get on with life.

downcow · 21-11-2021 12:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118200223#Comment_118200223

Apologies. I meant people moving from Ireland and England to Northern Ireland. It was clumsy of me to label them Irish and English

downcow · 21-11-2021 12:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118200516#Comment_118200516

I am at a loss to see any contradiction between the two statements. And unionism contains much diversity of opinion

downcow · 21-11-2021 12:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118200522#Comment_118200522

You are misunderstanding me (I am sure not on purpose🤔).

there is lots in the nip that is great for ni but there is lots in the nip that cannot be countenanced under any circumstances.

TCDStudent1 · 21-11-2021 1:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118200601#Comment_118200601

Which parts "cannot be countenanced under any circumstances"?

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2021 1:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118200594#Comment_118200594

Well then maybe review the 'split' we are seeing in real time.

Belligerent Unionism is fracturing from moderate Unionism.

Are the days of Unionism voting as a block beginning to disappear.

downcow · 21-11-2021 2:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118200805#Comment_118200805

I can’t remember unionists ever voting on a block except in very exceptional circumstances eg the AAI or a specific constituency that was a straight battle against an ira candidate.

Tell us when you think unionists voted in a block recently? Your implication is they regularly do.

downcow · 21-11-2021 2:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118200694#Comment_118200694

Excessive sea check and the silly rules that have lead to most of them and the Ecj controlling them.

Seth Brundle · 21-11-2021 2:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118201085#Comment_118201085

The ECJ is involved because the UK wishes to trade with the EU and has made claims that it will reduce its own standards.

The simplest way for the UK to not have the ECJ rule on disputes is to have no trade with the EU!

XsApollo · 21-11-2021 2:56pm

Let Northern Ireland vote if they want the border in Ireland or in the sea.

probably not that simple to do obviously with all the other agreements in place regarding the north.

would all parties agree to that referendum or would one side not be willing , for that basically being the end of them?

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2021 2:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118201080#Comment_118201080

Unionists vote en block when they see a threat/advantage to 'the Union'.

As you say...the AIA, or Brexit.

Clearly a split as to what the Protocol is, has developed.

Unless you are playing both sides of the pitch that is.

Review your position on it.

'Protocol is fine and all trade blocks have them versus Protocol has parts that cannot be countenanced.

downcow · 21-11-2021 5:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118201140#Comment_118201140

Is hard to discuss with you when you just make up your own basic facts to suit

you say - “Unionists vote en block when they see a threat/advantage to 'the Union'. As you say...the AIA, or Brexit.”

the fact - is that unionists and even their parties were at odds throughout the brexit referendum. No way did they vote en masse. Which way are you suggesting they voted en masse on brexit?

you say - “Protocol is fine and all trade blocks have them versus Protocol has parts that cannot be countenanced.”

the facts - I have never said the protocol is fine. I have always said that some parts of it are fine and other part are not.

downcow · 21-11-2021 5:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118201132#Comment_118201132

If only it was that simple. This is one that we don’t have complete ownership of.

Angler1 · 21-11-2021 6:17pm

Hi. Can someone explain to me?

How come NI voted majority to stay in the EU, but that's not valid cause the sovereign UK voted in bulk to leave, yet the sovereign UK government signed the Protocol and the Unionists won't accept it?

I'm confused, if they're loyal unionists they would accept the decisions of their prime minister?

Angler1 · 21-11-2021 6:17pm

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2021 6:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202192#Comment_118202192

You have said and triumphalised that the Protocol is great for NI...then you about face and say that there are elements of the Protocol that cannot be countenanced.

That is a position that is at odds with itself. You cannot have both and still be credible.

This graphic says all that needs to be said about 'block' votes for Brexit

fash · 21-11-2021 8:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202318#Comment_118202318

Because they don't care about consistency in their position- they only want to get what they want: to screw over the Taigs.

downcow · 21-11-2021 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202318#Comment_118202318

There is no need to be confused. I can be completely clear for you.

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom and we held a referendum involving all the people of the United Kingdom. All of our people voted for Brexit. Most of the people in the kingdom who had voted to remain, accepted the will of the people expressed in the referendum , myself included.

The protocol is entirely different. It was a negotiation between the government in power and the EU. It is absolutely consistent to have a point of view that you will abide by the will of the people in a referendum, but that you will not just accept everything the particular government who is in power decide for you at any particular time. Most of the people I know do not agree with the entirety of the protocol and therefore we will agitate for change.

So do not be confused. Being loyal and/or a unionist does not mean you need to accept the decisions of any particular Prime Minister. It's the very essence of the mother of all parliaments to which we have pleasure of belonging

downcow · 21-11-2021 8:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202357#Comment_118202357

Francie, you may be struggling to keep up, but I think that almost every poster on here will know that I feel that there are large elements of the protocol that are absolutely excellent for Northern Ireland, but that there are elements of it that I cannot accept. You're back to your black and white thinking. You need to know that it's either 100% good or 100% bad.

downcow · 21-11-2021 8:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202755#Comment_118202755

You see fash, you are simply demonstrating your sectarianised thinking for everyone to see. The sooner you realise that many unionists are actually 'taigs', the sooner you will start to understand the nuances of Northern Ireland and the amazing positive journey that it has been on

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2021 8:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202901#Comment_118202901

I wasn't making the original point about you downcow,

I asked it of Unionism in general.

There is an element of Unionism that will not accept the Protocol in any form and another that can live with it.

An element that sees it as a fundamental undermining of the Union and another that sees the benefits. Unionism spliting, in other words.

downcow · 21-11-2021 8:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202921#Comment_118202921

I think you are doing Irish nationalism a disservice there. You are implying that they all think the same. I give them much more credit than that. I imagine, like Unionists, they have a diversity of views on exactly what their fantasy United Ireland looks like. Francie, do you see diversity of opinion within a community as a weakness? It is really quite sad if you do

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2021 8:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202961#Comment_118202961

No, not in a block voting entity like Unionism has been in matters relating to the 'Union'.

That little graphic again.

downcow · 21-11-2021 9:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203006#Comment_118203006

i honestly have no idea what point you are making. Are you implying that eg East Belfast is 48% nationalist and that the 52% vote for Brexit was all the unionists? Stop the riddles and explain yourself

Seth Brundle · 21-11-2021 9:24pm

All of our people voted for Brexit.

erm, no they did not!

Most of the people in the kingdom who had voted to remain, accepted the will of the people expressed in the referendum , myself included.

Was a survey (or surveys) conducted to establish that most people have accepted the "will of the people"? I don't believe that the "will of the people" has ever actually been defined - maybe you can point us to where it was.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2021 9:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203050#Comment_118203050

See the big 'block' of blue? Work from there...I'm sure you will figure it out.

Look to your own political representatives claiming 'not a single Unionist is in favour......etc etc. I think you have made similar claims.

The Irish protocol.

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