Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

TRC10 · 20-11-2021 2:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118194971#Comment_118194971

But he's playing Baloucoune, Sheehan, O'Toole, Casey and H.Byrne? What's that if not building depth?

That's 5 very young, very inexperienced players against a tier 1 nation. How many do you want? He can't play all the kids. Add to that Kelleher and Doris (both 23) who have become 1st choice players this November.

He plays young player X, and you say you want young player Y. He can't win.

Dubinusa · 20-11-2021 3:30am

I'm never happy! I guess, I want AF to blood as many as possible, against good opposition. You are right. He is mixing it up, but not as much as I would.

TRC10 · 20-11-2021 4:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195105#Comment_118195105

He also has to implement a style of play, which is requires a certain amount of continuity.

We've had two games where we're starting to look slick and fluid in our new style. So we'd be getting way ahead of ourselves if we thought we we're in a position to make wholesale changes and still be cohesive.

It's really important that we keep improving and building momentum with the 6N around the corner.

Neil3030 · 20-11-2021 5:39am

The starters need to get comfortable to life without Johnny. Crucial for Carbery that he has the likes of Ringrose, Lowe and Keenan to slot in at ten when needed to relieve pressure. I actually really like this selection from Farrell because you can tell exactly what's it's about.

molloyjh · 20-11-2021 10:04am

It was mentioned above that all we have to do is look at the squad from the start of the year to see the progress that has been made.

The front row has gone from Healy, Herring, Furlong to Porter, Kelleher, Furlong. Sheehan is making a real play for that 16 shirt too.

Beirne had been moving back and forth between lock and blindside. He’s now nailed down lock as his position.

Our back row was POM, Connors, Stander. Now it’s Doris, VDF, Conan.

Murray was our first choice scrum half. He’s been dropped in favour of JGP.

Burns was our second choice 10 (albeit with Carbery injured). With Carbery back he’s taken that slot, but instead of having Burns as 3rd choice we now have Harry Byrne there.

Earls was our starting right wing. He’s been overtaken by Conway and possibly even Balacoune now. And while Lowe was starting on the wing, he has since been dropped and brought back in again.

We’ve seen 7 changes to our starting XV alone this year as well as Lowes exclusion and return to the squad.

Add to this the change in game plan plus the fact that we know that Farrell isn’t shy about giving players debuts in 6Ns games that aren’t against Italy (players like Kelleher, Doris and Keenan can attest to that) then we can clearly see that if guys are good enough they will get games. And not just games against the US. We seem to be evolving our side quite well and we don’t really need those games where we blind loads of young lads in one go because we’re blooding them as we go along.

clsmooth · 20-11-2021 11:30am

I think he’s got the balance right in the starting 15. It’s giving the players selected the best opportunity to perform well.

Carbery gets his chance behind a first choice pack with ‘Lions’ inside and outside of him. He nailed some high pressure kicks last week and a good performance tomorrow could do wonders for his form going on.

Baloucoune gets his chance in a close to first choice backline. Very excited to see what he can do in combination with the likes of Lowe, Ringrose and Keenan. The pack should be able to provide them with some go forward ball. He could be a big player for us going forward.

Harry Byrne and Casey will hopefully get decent minutes. I’d have liked to see Coombes off the bench but there’s a balance to be found and POM has gone well over the last 2 weeks. Maybe Coombes isn’t completely 100% after being ill hence him being held back. He’ll get minutes during the 6N baring loss of form or injury.

I don’t think Larmour or Zebo have done enough this season to warrant the 23 jersey so no harm to give them a bit of motivation to find their best form back at the provinces. Likewise with Baird. Caps should be earned and not just handed out to appease supporters.

Jump_In_Jack · 20-11-2021 12:25pm

I think Addison or Stockdale might have been 23 ahead of Earls had either of them been fit.

Dubinusa · 20-11-2021 12:29pm

Yea Stockdale should be back soon enough. Farrell has done well. The 6nations will be great viewing.

UAEguy2020 · 20-11-2021 1:51pm

I would have preferred Larmour on the bench, experienced enough plus still has plenty of room to grow.

RichieRich_89 · 20-11-2021 4:42pm

This talk of Ireland 'A' returning is interesting. It's probably necessary with less provincial gametime to go around. I wonder could anyone use it as a springboard to break into the main squad ahead of the World Cup.

You could pick a pretty good shadow squad from the following:

1s: Josh Wycherley, Peter Dooley, Jeremy Loughman, Callum Reid, Michael Milne

2s: Dave Heffernan, Tom Stewart, Diarmuid Barron

3s: Marty Moore, Keynan Knox, Roman Salanoa, Vakhtang Abdaladze, Jack Aungier

4s, 5s: Thomas Ahern, Jack Dunne, Ross Molony, Gavin Thornbury, Cormac Izuchukwu, Joe McCarthy, Niall Murray

6s: David McCann, Josh Murphy, Jack O'Donoghue, Cian Prendergast

7s: Scott Penny, John Hodnett, Alex Kendellan, Conor Oliver

8s: Max Deegan, Paul Boyle, Jack O'Sullivan

9s: Nathan Doak, Caolin Blade, Colm Reilly

10s: Ben Healy, Jack Crowley, Michael Lowry

11s: Mack Hansen, Rob Lyttle, Alex Wootton, Conor Philips

12s: Tom Daly, Conor O'Brien

13s: Stewart Moore, Thomas Farrell

14s: Tommy O'Brien

15s: Shane Daly, Jimmy O'Brien, Ethan McIlroy, Jamie Osborne, Jack Kelly

Some good players there. The style of play Ireland are employing under Farrell would suit Deegan and Penny down to the ground. Maybe rather than having a completely separate squad they would use the 'A' games to give gametime to the full squad players who just missed out, though - the likes of Zebo, Hume, Frawley, Kilcoyne, Baird, Coombes this time around.

UAEguy2020 · 20-11-2021 4:45pm

Jack Kelly? Is that the u20 captain from 2017?

RichieRich_89 · 20-11-2021 4:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196894#Comment_118196894

Yeah. He's looked pretty good playing 7s. I hope the door would be kept open for him. Eddie Jones included uncapped 7s player Ruaridh McConnochie in his World Cup squad.

clsmooth · 20-11-2021 5:06pm

Wolfhound games in the past have always been a disappointment despite some tasty line ups. You’re generally just throwing 15 players together who aren’t completely on the same page. The focus is always the first 15. Any decent moves will be kept under wraps etc

I remember buzzing to watch this one a few years ago. Wasn’t too good.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/31045244

Dubinusa · 20-11-2021 9:14pm

Are they thinking of a shadow tournament? Like a 6nations, but for the "A" sides?

bilston · 20-11-2021 10:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198656#Comment_118198656

Personally I hope not. I think the A teams have had their day.

That said the current gap between URC Rd 5 and Rd 6 is far too long and needs filled with something.

Blue4u · 20-11-2021 11:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118199128#Comment_118199128

From an Ireland point of view it would make sense. A senior team and then a second team to hopefully push players forward. Getting better teams for the young lads to play will help them move up towards full internationals

salmocab · 20-11-2021 11:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118199162#Comment_118199162

A games tend to be very poor matches and not a step up from league games. The only real benefit is game time. Extremely difficult to play well and standout in a thrown together team.

molloyjh · 20-11-2021 11:32pm

I wonder does our current approach lend itself well to A games? A shape that requires players to make good decisions within it is very different from a bunch of set plays etc.

bilston · 20-11-2021 11:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118199162#Comment_118199162

The A games were rarely great. They were normally a bunch of guys who were just thrown together. I honestly think the young lads would get more from playing a Champions Cup match or big URC play off or Inter Pro.

bilston · 20-11-2021 11:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118199230#Comment_118199230

Players were more likely to play themselves out of Ireland contention than into it on the back of A games. They used to have one against England on the last weekend of January every year and I don't remember anyone really pushing their way into the senior team of the back of it.

What was good was the Churchill Cup. It helped develop some players for the senior squad. But that was in June/July when there was no domestic rugby, but it was useful for younger lads. But I doubt that that is what is being suggested here.

Dubinusa · 21-11-2021 12:00am

We did send a side to Tbilisi one year! It was not really challenging except that the Boks had a side, IIRC. Maybe that would be an option?

UAEguy2020 · 21-11-2021 12:16am

Wouldn’t mind a cup like the Tbilisi cup for instance.

bilston · 21-11-2021 12:31am

Wasn't the Tblissi Cup a step even below the Churchill Cup? It was more like a 3rd team? Maybe I'm misremembering it.

Lost Ormond · 21-11-2021 12:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118199506#Comment_118199506

Yes. it had Emerging Ireland competing as a third irish side with games not even "A" status

Dubinusa · 21-11-2021 3:18am

Emerging Ireland, that's right! Forgot that! I did think it was "A" rugby. Might be worth doing something similar.

Blue4u · 21-11-2021 8:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118199345#Comment_118199345

Yes because it was never done properly. Plus you could say the same about the Lions

If the A team had a proper number of games and competition each season you could have players in the group with the view of moving up

Jump_In_Jack · 21-11-2021 8:39am

Ire v Arg match thread here

Clegg · 21-11-2021 5:18pm

That was a pretty successful Autumn Series for us. The results and performances against Japan and New Zealand wer excellent. The performance against Argentina wasn't as good, but we saw some fine phase play in fits and starts.

We've bedded in a new style of play that gets the best out of the footballing skills from forwards and backs. Ringrose looks revitalised playing in his dual playmaking and running role. Doris and Kelleher have now proven that they have the ability to excel at test level. And JGP is now vital to the way we perform. His on the fly decision making and speed at which he gets the ball out if the ruck is now crucial to how we play. I also think we've potentially the best front row in rugby. Porter, Kelleher and Furlong are in incredibly athletic and can power through defenders, but also have the footballing skills to act as passing options.

One worry for me is back up 9. It's important that we have a replacement/substitute for JGP who can keep up the tempo of our play. Murray isn't that player. He's a far more deliberate 9 who wants to assess the options he has when he gets to the ruck rather than get the ball out quickly. He didn't play well against Argentina mainly down to the slowness of his style. That had a knock on to what the rest of the side was able to do.

pickarooney · 21-11-2021 7:46pm

As a scrumming unit our front row still has some way to go. We coughed up penalties there against Japan and Argentina and I think it was on the LH side each time. Nothing to worry about, Porter just needs time to readapt, but I wouldn't expect much success against SA or France at the moment.

Paul Smeenus · 21-11-2021 7:54pm

Tedious game - great win.

Missed Henderson's physicality, leadership and scrumming.

Doris continues to seriously impress. Murray was so slow. So slow. Casey was a massive relief when he came on.

Carbery was in his hoop MOTM. Furlong was better and more important.

KevinK · 21-11-2021 8:07pm

One worry for me is back up 9. It's important that we have a replacement/substitute for JGP who can keep up the tempo of our play. Murray isn't that player. He's a far more deliberate 9 who wants to assess the options he has when he gets to the ruck rather than get the ball out quickly. He didn't play well against Argentina mainly down to the slowness of his style. That had a knock on to what the rest of the side was able to do.

I wonder who should be the backup nine? Lots of options but far from clear who they should go with. Seems like we need someone similar enough to Gibson Park so our playing style doesn't change when he departs. Option A appear to be Murray right now but he is noticeably slower than Gibson Park and it does hamper us. Casey is next in line and while he brings great tempo and has great potential I'm not sure if he is ready to be the second choice nine at international level, Luke McGrath has to come into consideration - he stills seems ahead of Gibson-Park at provincial level and Leinster don't seem to alter their style when he play . Marmion maybe? What about Blade? Always struck me as a pacy player but probably needs to get ahead of MArmion first to be a realistic option. Cooney at Ulster has looked great for a few years, but think that possibility has passed, also not sure if his style is the pacy fast one that I'm thinking Ireland now need. What about Doak, lots of talk about him and his potential - what type of scumhalf is her?

AbusesToilets · 21-11-2021 8:32pm

I hope we don't just default to having JGP as the no.1 SH. He's been a revelation the past few weeks, but there are other lads like Blade, who've been excellent who warrant a chance too.

Legitimate competition is what I want for the team going forward.

sydthebeat · 21-11-2021 8:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202697#Comment_118202697

I can only recall one penalty against Porter today, which was a poor call as the argie clearly lost his bind.

In turn though we won what, 3?, scrum penalties ourselves? And we won plenty versus the all blacks through porters side last week

I don't think we've to much to worry to be honest from porter. I'd be much more worried about who his long term back up is going to be. Healy has another 6n in him at best, IMHO, and killer not being able to get ahead of him at this stage of healys career doesn't bode well going forward.

leakyboots · 21-11-2021 8:40pm

JGP's performances have been great but it must come with the caveat that he had it on a plate. Look at our ruck presentation today - how many times in the first half did it squirt out the side, players getting in the way of Murray picking it up etc. Once we got the upper hand the play flowed better.

I'd be interested to see how JGP goes against the likes of France/England in the Six Nations - but you'd have to say the starter's jersey is his to lose as things stand.

Must love hardship · 21-11-2021 8:55pm

Next Friday might tell us alot about Doak. If he starts v Leinster there is a fair chance his pack won't have dominance..

He looked a superstar in first few games but when Ulster were in trouble v connacht the last day out he was ordinary enough.. saying that no one from ulster was great really.

As per your question what sort of scrum half is it. The most common comparison he is getting is Ruan pienar and its not far off.

He is an excellant prospect. Over 6 foot tall. well able to control a game, great pass, has an eye for a try and excellent kicker. Might not be lightening fast at the base of a ruck but not slow either. Normally surveys the defence before he gets to the ruck not when he is there slowing it too much and mixes pass running and kicking fairly well.

Id imagine he will be the 2023 world squad bolter but not sure who misses out from the November scrum halves.

21-11-2021 9:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118202934#Comment_118202934

We were having more difficulty at the breakdown because Argentina were winning collisions against us in a way that Japan / NZ didn't. Argentina were winning those collisions because we weren't getting quick ruck ball, we weren't getting quick ruck ball because Murray was slowing it down at the back of the ruck. Wash rinse repeat.

Our ruck speed the last two weeks has been incredibly fast, from tackle, breakdown to delivery from 9. Our ruck speed was much slower today and a lot of that was down to Murray's ponderous play style. The last two weeks we've changed the point of attack across the pack as we carry towards contact, we did that today but it was less relentless and more predictable because of our slower ruck speed. There is no other explanation in my mind why we regularly lost gain-line and why our backs seemed hesitant in possession (particularly at 10). While Argentina were regularly offside, their line speed was a direct result of our ball delivery and that is very much down to Murray's.

aloooof · 21-11-2021 9:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203155#Comment_118203155

“There is no other explanation in my mind why we regularly lost gain-line and why our backs seemed hesitant in possession (particularly at 10).”

I largely agree with your overall point Venjur, but no other explanation why 10 in particular seemed hesitant? Surely the obvious point is that we had a different 10.

(I’m not saying Murray’s ponderousness at times didn’t have an affect either, mind).

21-11-2021 9:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203196#Comment_118203196

It was all of our backs though. The wingers barely touching the ball in the first half and the amount of times 10 / 12 / 13 ran laterally looking for gaps (even doubling back on themselves) was something we haven't seen the last two weeks. That hesitation was down to Argentina having a set defensive line, which they had because our ruck speed was on average a few seconds slower.

I'd have liked to have seen Carbery and Casey for a bit to be honest. Wasn't convinced by Carbery but he wasn't helped at all by Murray. I'll watch the game back but as others have commented, I thought Harry Byrne seemed more decisive on the ball (execution aside) and we had more of a flow when he was on. That could be more down to Casey, it could also be down to Argentina being more fatigued at that stage.

leakyboots · 21-11-2021 11:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203155#Comment_118203155

Some of his passing from the base took that extra second at times. Other times it was snappy, particularly in their 22. Other times our forwards were not protecting or presenting the pill as best as they could, Argentina spoiled or disrupted a lot of our rucks. Go look at the rucks from the first half and the ball squirting out, hitting off legs. That's not all down to Murray - some of the ball he got handed was crap. Things tightened up after before and after half time as Argentina tired and we wore them down. Reading people during the game complaining he's slow when he's taking his time setting up for an exit boxkick from inside the 22... as if he should be flinging it wide rapidly in every scenario.

I don't think he'll be the number one going forward but I don't think he was as bad today as many are making out (or maybe even hoping) on here. Two boxkicks got us in behind them and eventually led to tries, but for a slapped ball down he was in for one himself and a break off a scrum where he then tracked play and got it again in the 22 eventually led to a score if my memory serves me right.

Casey had a much easier ride (as you'd argue it should be for a sub 9 when he comes on if the pack have done their job). His passing is snappier than Murray's generally anyway though. I'd be happy to see Casey in the 23 for the Six Nations, I think his time is coming soon and would be good to bed him in for (potentially) a World Cup squad.

aloooof · 22-11-2021 12:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203250#Comment_118203250

I disagree with those saying HB was better tbh, but another consideration to add to those you’ve mentioned is that HB played the majority of his time vs a beaten 14 men also.

In any case, I think there’s a decent chance Casey overtakes Murray at Munster before the end of the season. I do have a slight worry about a 9-10 of Casey and Carbery, just defensively tho. We just won’t have the physicality going foward we’ve been lucky enough to have at 9-10 over the last decade regardless tho.

22-11-2021 12:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203808#Comment_118203808

I'm not disputing what your saying, I'm just pointing out that our difficulties at the ruck were often caused by our difficulties at the ruck. Rather than fast go forward gainline breaking rugby, we had the breaks every few breakdowns for no reason and allowed Argentina to settle and subsequently disrupt.

In a nutshell, even when we had fast ball, we didn't always have fast ball and we allowed Argentina (either as a result of strong defensive tackle or numbers around the breakdown) opportunities to disrupt.

Obviously there were a variety of causes in general and credit to Argentina for reading us well at times, but Murray definitely played a greater part than he should have.

22-11-2021 12:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203923#Comment_118203923

I don't think HB was better necessarily, at least not in terms of his impact on the game. I just think he played more like a 10, linked up the backline and looked to vary things up with chips and grubbers.

Carbery looked like a good fullback playing 10, and then he looked like a good fullback playing fullback.

Again - will reserve judgement until I see him at 10 with that pack but JGP delivering him ball. That was the most unfortunate of the injuries this week - would have been useful to see them start together.

Dubinusa · 22-11-2021 1:04am

A good autumn. But, we'll see were we are come the 6nations and the summer tour. I was very impressed with the pack throughout the 3 matches. Big efforts from them all.

Pity that Ryan was injured. He was having a good outing. I am a bit concerned for his health. Hopefully he recovers soon.

Casey was a catalyst when he came on. Serious pace to his game. He's the future, imo. Murray wasn't bad! He's just not that good!

Carberry was decent. His kicking off the tee was brilliant. Would have liked to see him play alongside Casey. HB was ok. Some mistakes, poor ones. But, he does really attack the line. It was obvious he has not played in months.

Thought the subs did very well! Very good impact. Lavanini is a maggot.

TRC10 · 22-11-2021 1:51am

When your worst performance of a November window is a 53-7 win over Argentina, you know you're doing something right.

Equally, we shouldn't be under any illusions. Argentina weren't good today. There's a lot we need to improve on. England and France away in the spring will be a mammoth test.

It's been a good November, but there's no trophies for a good November.

Dubinusa · 22-11-2021 3:31am

I think we are seeing a little changing of the guard, so to speak. Besides the the newer version of our play and the factors that are involved, I would assume AF has set his sights on a more fluid and faster style of play for the past 18 months.

He is to be commended for the lads he's brought into the set up and in particular, the type of player he has included. If we look at each position, it's plain to see what he's looking for. I.e, loose head, Porter switching has been ideal and he has also had E.O.S involved. In general, the pack are very mobile and skillful. He is trying to layer the team with mobility, speed and intensity. So far it's been good.

So Porter is the 1st choice. Healy has been relegated to the bench. Kilcoyne is on the outside looking in. EOS has not managed to improve in the Aretha they wanted, so he was left out. Another similar type player as Porter would be ideal. There are a couple of young players that could make the grade. I think Healy won't make the world cup!

Hooker is now an are of strenght. Kelleher has exceeded my expectations and so has Sheehan! Herring will be thereabouts, but it's pointing towards the Leinster duo. There's other young players who could make a push, Tom Stewart, Barron at Munster.

Tight head is also quite strong. Furlong is world class. Bealham has been impressive and O'Toole is that type of mobile player that could easily slot in. I think he will improve with time.

At lock there's the holy trinity of Beirne, Henderson and Ryan. All superb options. The options behind them are too bad either, Dillane; Baird and Ahern in the future.

Back row is ridiculous. Where do you start? I think we have the deepest pool of quality in the 6nations for back row.

9 is JGP's now! He has it locked down. Murray will do well to hold off Casey. Eventually, Casey will be the starter, imo. Then there's Blade! Doak! and other capable players.

10 is Sexton! Not even close. Carberry is in pole position as back up, but HB will improve with time. Healy and Crowley could step up too. The rest are outside the box right now.

Back 3 is loaded. Keenan and Conway are top class. Lowe has shown improvement and then there's Zebo; Larmour and Stockdale! All could play their way into the team. I think Earls benching for all the matches, is a changing of the guard. Lest I forget, Balacoune. A player who appears to be the complete package. Hansen has been the best wing so far this year, my opinion.

Center is ok. 3 top class performers and a few decent players below that level. The ones to watch would be Hume and Frawley.

It been a revelation watching the transformation of our style. Hopefully, it continues !

ersatz · 22-11-2021 6:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118203943#Comment_118203943

Carbery from full back looked very impressive. I think he had 2 nice line breaks from 15. As 10 he was tackled going backwards a couple of times and while he had some nice passes there was little of the accuracy and fluidity we saw from Sexton last week. He didn’t seem assured in his decisions. Argentina were more successful at closing down our back play than NZ were. Several times they caught the receiver on the second deep pass to a runner behind the forward pod. To me that was the result of a bad decision by the distributor, often Carbery. In those instances the Argentinian tactic should have been read and the pass needed to go flat to a forward.

Overall even though ringrose and henshaw passed and carried well, I thought the backs never really got into the game. Lowe was busy but mostly returning kicks, and Baloucoune barely got into the game.

Happydays2020 · 22-11-2021 6:42am

Great Autumn but it will be another quarter final exit in France.

22-11-2021 9:06am

Anyone know what happened to Ryan? He gets injured just when Doris scores, I can't see any evidence of a knock to the head in the footage but he looked groggy going off, really hope it's not concussion.

Leinster going to be down a few players for the Euro games at this rate.

sydthebeat · 22-11-2021 9:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204365#Comment_118204365

He was taken straight off, no mention of a HIA and it was reported after as a head injury. While he walked off gingerly, he wasnt wobbly or anything. Hopefully it was a fully precautionary call

22-11-2021 9:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204365#Comment_118204365

I've watched it back, there was nothing obvious from his last contact so unless something happened in an earlier phase it's hard to know.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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