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Space X

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭FFVII


    Go and watch real time crowd Q&A. He has talked some utter cringe in the past. Hasnt a clue when he doesn't know what questions are coming.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭FFVII


    https://futurism.com/blue-origin-salty-infographic-spacex 

    Whats the story with the 8 orbit refuels needed to get to the moon??? 10 starship launches?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,410 ✭✭✭✭Ghost Train


    I think because of starships mass it needs more fuel for a trip to the moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,719 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    These are all claims coming from Blue origin, something that has not been verified at all.

    If im correct then what they are claiming is that space x will need to fully fuel up the starship for it to make the journey to the moon.

    Now while its true that starships mass will mean it will need more fuel for the journey, I would treat them claims with a large pinch of salt until anything is verified by spacex themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭3d4life


    Has this has been posted already ?


    Kimbal Musk had a blog in the early days of SpaceX

    Its still up at https://kwajrockets.blogspot.com/



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Totally not a dig at Boeing for not doing all up tests and their stuck valves. After the 737 debacles (LOTS of other problems too) Boeing have a lot to prove, or just one thing, whether the engineers or accounts run the company. Because the accountants will run it into the ground leaving Airbus (and the Russians) as the only ones who can build wide body airliners until the Chinese can.


    Edit - this was a reply to - Shlippery's

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1425670276256251908Interesting that they'll be going back on Monday...I wonder how the Static fires / pressure tests will work?

    Post edited by Capt'n Midnight on


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Starship is heavy but can take on a LOT of fuel.

    Rough rule of thumb for the moon's delta-V is that 50% of the mass is fuel for landing or take off. So Starship would need four times it's mass to do a round trip. Also getting from LEO to the moon and back takes a lot of energy too. Worst case - crashing a Starship into Mars would mean that colonists would have 100 tonnes of steel + remnants of cargo.


    Blue Origin still haven't delivered the Be-4 engine, New Glen is delayed yet again, or gotten higher than Spaceship One which was the one before Branson's, sour grapes.

    There's a lot about Elon not to like but the hardware is flying and it's not on a cost plus basis, you can see the improvements Gradatim Ferociter my arse. Starship with it's stubby wings has landed (but exploded later) , the booster is sorta like a larger version of Falcon 9 so it's reasonable to assume that it too could land, eventually.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭FFVII




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Because its cheaper and easier than doing it themselves. The Dragon/Crew Dragon program has already been extremely successful at a fraction of the cost to NASA of developing their own vehicles.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,719 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    SN10 landed and then exploded but SN15 landed and apart from a small fire had no issues after landing. As Elon put it "Landing nominal"



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,719 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    But thinking about the lunar variant of starship, it does seem overkill. Why would you base a lunar lander on the same model that has been designed for reuse landing and taking off from earth.

    Why not develop a much smaller version designed to just travel from LEO to the moon only?

    Now obviously im just some random internet user who really doesn't have a clue, but its just something ive been thinking about and wondering the reasons behind it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical



    I think good points there and the same thought has struck me. I'm guessing that much of the development cost of the lander has already been done (or will be done) for Starship anyway and so a modified version, even if it is not the ideal design, can still win the competition for a lander. Overkill is not a problem for NASA if the price is still competitive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,719 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    And thinking about it a bit more, I guess their ultimate aim is to use Starship to land on Mars and as such are not really interested in designing and developing a completely different craft just for the moon.

    I suppose the moon missions will also be a good starting point before they even think about the idea of trying to reach and land on Mars.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭Shlippery




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    NASA is needed to fund Boeing and Lockheed and a few others of the industrial-military complex as warned about by Eisenhower.

    Boeing can't compete with Airbus on a level playing field because cost cutting has impacted their ability to deliver the quality of old. This is a company that is deliberately 'too big to fail' by buying up lots of the companies on the F-35 program. Hence lots of govt bail outs and trade wars with the EU on their behalf.


    SpaceX has upset the apple cart by delivering working stuff at a small fraction of the cost of the traditional companies Bezos has aligned with. Each of the four simplified don't need to be reusable Space Shuttles engines on the SLS costs almost as much as a Falcon Heavy launch. The recent Cygnus / Antares mission to the ISS has loads of foreign kit in it, but charged at full US prices.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭Shlippery


    Thought this was class, closest thing I'll get to seeing Boca Chica for a while i'd say!

    Probably works best in youtube app.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭3d4life


    Another day, another launch

    Skip to around 7:40 for landing on new drone ship :D



    Long (NASAspaceflight ) version




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    The three keys to keeping a new human space program affordable and on schedule:

           1)  No new launch vehicles.

           2)  No new launch vehicles.

           3)  Whatever you do, don't develop any new launch vehicles.


    Yes it's overkill. But reusable makes it a lot cheaper. Fuel is cheap compared to designing a whole new rocket. It's the reason SpaceX skipped the Falcon 5 project and went straight to Falcon 9 once they had the Falcon 1 working.

    The bid from Bezos was twice the price. Even if you include the £2Bn Bezos said he'd stump up, the SpaceX bid is still a billion dollars cheaper. And still Bezos sued. This is a guy who got $13 billion richer in one day.

    Technically SpaceX could cobble together something from a combination of Falcon Heavy and Dragon even if Starship is a complete flop so there's security there.

    Blue Origin are at least four years late on the Be-4 engine and still haven't gotten to orbit. SpaceX have taken a basic Falcon 9 design from 10,450 Kg to LEO through 13,150 Kg and 22,800Kg to 63,800 Kg with the Falcon Heavy and Starship should do 100,000Kg multiple times with reusable hardware for a lower cost.

    Note : Blue Origin's New Shepard (first flight 2005,) is roughly the same size and thrust as Falcon 1 (first flight 2006, orbit 2008, retired 2009). And the Be-4 is now four years late. Technically ULA could just about use some Raptors on their Vulcan in time to meet the NASA contracts if they throw everything at the problem.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭jogdish


    Also the starship lunar, is a huge volume so would be a pseudo habbitat while you wait for more permenant stuff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,719 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    FAA has issued a draft review for Starships orbital test flight. Although it looks like the process has quite a way to go yet.


    https://www.space.com/faa-releases-draft-environmental-review-spacex-starship



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Starship / Booster catching arms installed on tower,


    also Starship 20 static fire testing window open till 6 in the morning irish time,

    Edit, could be about quarter past 1


    Post edited by Quantum Erasure on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭3d4life


    Even if it doesnt, the daily condensed activity at Bocachica is worth watching

    The pace of work is astounding !

    If SpaceX get lucky and dont have too many 'unscheduled disassembly events' before they get it all working then I'd wonder if ULA might throw in the towel :D



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    ULA (a joint venture between Boeing and Lockheed Martin) have practically bet the company on Bezos getting the BE-4 engine working. 4 years overdue and counting.

    The irony is that ULA could have gone for the AR1 in development by Aerojet Rocketdyne who've been in the engine business forever. Further irony is that Lockheed Martin took them over recently so the AR1 would've been made in house rather than by a direct competitor if New Glen turns out to be anything other than vapourwear :rolleyes:

    Or continued to use Russian RD180 engines except they aren't allowed to because "they weren't invented here"


    Meanwhile Boeing are having awful problems with their $4.2Bn Starliner capsule. The astronauts are going up on the flight proven, $2.6Bn to develop, Dragon instead. Who would have thought that Florida has humidity ?

    This is costing both ULA and Boeing financially as NASA moves missions to SpaceX rockets.

    Post edited by Capt'n Midnight on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭3d4life


    Yup, Capt'n.

    All of that and a whole heap more ( think I saw that the FAA panned Mr B's software input for the project, most of which was apparently outsourced to a company in India )

    And then there is the topic of what hasnt been said about Starlink. Do we really think that each sat. doesnt have Hi def cameras on board ? I can think of a few of uncle Sam's three letter agencies who might ( ha ha ) be interested in That functionality .

    How about a variant of Starship for 'non-earth' data centres ? ( that would be an interesting situation when it came to regulation and taxation )

    Bearing in mind that L. Page and E. Musk seem to have been the best of buddies going back years I'd expect a heap of off the wall stuff to be tried out. Does anyone know if Alphabet has a holding in SpaceX ?

    Anyway, interesting times ahead. :D



  • Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭Poulgorm


    Has SpaceX test flown the Super Heavy Rocket part (i.e. the first stage) of the Starship?

    The only tests I have seen are that of the second stage - confusingly also called Starship.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    No the Super Heavy Booster hasn't flown yet. So it should be an all-up test like they did with Saturn V. The advantage is you get to test more things quickly, but if things don't work out you also get to go disassemble lots more hardware rapidly.

    The booster with it's folding grids is more similar to their previous first stages than Starship is so I'd imagine it's "more of the same" in a very difficult rocket science way but the control software or plumbing may need tweaking.

    SLS is stacked and ready to go in the new year. Be interesting to see which makes it to orbit first. I've no doubt that SpaceX will be first to make it to orbit twice though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭Poulgorm


    Is the second stage of Starship capable of lift off & going into orbit on its own (i.e. without the first stage)?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭jogdish


    yes, but not enough fuel to execute the burn needed for landing again. It's not designed to go without booster so it won't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭Poulgorm


    Thanks Capt'n Midnight & jogdish. Another question on Starship: can both stages return & land on a barge or are they too heavy for that?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭Shlippery


    I don't think they can land on the barges (open to correction) - but SpaceX have acquired 2 oil rigs for Starship launches!


    In other news, Blue Origin lost the case against SpaceX for Lunar contract so hopefully Starship ops can really ramp up now from Monday!



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    Giant chopsticks

    "Saves mass and cost of legs and enables immediate repositioning of booster onto launch mount — ready to refly in under an hour," wildly optimistic :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,386 ✭✭✭MonkieSocks


    On Wednesday, November 10 at 9:03 p.m. EST, 2:03 UTC on November 11, SpaceX and NASA launched Dragon’s third long-duration operational crew mission (Crew-3) to the International Space Station from historic Launch Complex 39A (LC-39A) at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida.

    Following stage separation, Falcon 9’s first stage landed on the “A Shortfall of Gravitas” droneship.

    On Thursday, November 11 at approximately 6:33 p.m. EST, 23:33 UTC, Dragon will autonomously dock with the space station. Follow Dragon and the Crew-3 astronauts during their flight to the International Space Station at spacex.com/launches.

    Live


    =(:-) Me? I know who I am. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude (-:)=



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,386 ✭✭✭MonkieSocks


    Another view from The International Space Station


    https://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/ESRS/HDEV/

    =(:-) Me? I know who I am. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude (-:)=



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭Shlippery



    Static fire with all 6 Raptors...one step closer to orbital test!



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    Perhaps a dozen test flights next year, and eventual cost reduction to $30m a flight ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭jogdish


    Will be interesting, maybe just me but I feel the ultra fast pace stuff of the last year is gone, like Mk1 -> SN8, they are spending the needed time on other things. Wish it was crazy fast last before, but looking forward to seeing this hopefully in Jan.

    Does anyone know if there will be any views of splash downs? Das and a robot in a canoe :p for NSF :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,218 ✭✭✭✭josip


    While the cost of the flight might reduce to €30m, in the absence of any meaningful competition the price of it will remain way higher.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The only competition for Starship's 100 tonnes to LEO outside of SpaceX is SLS.

    NASA will spend, from fiscal year 2012 through 2025, $93 billion on the various elements of Artemis. This is on top of billions and billions of previous spend on Ares. Each SLS launch will cost $2.2Bn, each Artemis mission will cost $4.1Bn compare to ESA's budget €6.49 Bn, JAXA $4.14Bn Russia $2.9Bn India $1.9Bn


    SpaceX Falcon Heavy can put 64 tonnes into LEO for $150m

    SLS is supposed to put 70 tonnes into LEO , with billions in development for later versions which may put up more but by then the leftovers from the Shuttle will have been used up and that's when the real price gouging starts.

    If Russia and Ukraine kissed and made up then the fight proven Energia might flu again. Up to 200 tonnes in LEO if you use 8 Zenit boosters.

    Until there's actual flight hardware New Glenn's 45 tonnes to LEO is just wishful thinking. Mock up's don't count. Engines that haven't been fully debugged don't count.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,645 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beeker


    While I'm looking forward to the SLS and Artemis program, it is a huge waste of money. Hopefully Star ship and future developments will reduce the cost's and make it far more affordable to explore the Moon and beyond,



  • Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭Poulgorm


    The Super Heavy has 30 engines. I think the Saturn rocket had 4, back in the day (if my recollection is accurate). What are the chances of all 30 engines operating successfully at the same time? It must be very high risk.

    Is there redundancy built in - could a few of the engines fail and the unit still get into orbit?

    I think that the Russians, when they were trying to develop a rocket to get people to the moon, built a rocket with about 12 engines. But they could never get all 12 engines to work. So, they gave up. But, of course, that was 50 years ago.

    Why were new engines developed for the heavy booster rocket? Are each of the new engines more powerful than the single engine used in the first stage of the Falcon 9?

    Sorry for all the questions!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭jogdish


    Like you said, Saturn and N1 (russian moon rocket) were a long time ago and advances. The saturn had issues due to ressonances I think and four was as much as they could do, also its engines were fairly 'simple' as far as engines go, the N1 had issues but also bad luck, bad managment and time and political constraints.

    I think Starship + booster has a small amount of redundancy built in, maybe three of so engines can give out. iirc the centre ring gimblal while other ones don't.

    They could not use the Falcon engines, and needed raptor since raptor can troothle down low to allow for such a heavy thing to land itself. I think Falcon comes down and stops at the perfect time, while starship booster comes slowly down - Everyday Tim has many excellent videoes to explain this, the N1 and the Saturn etc.

    Ya, go watch 3hrs of Tim Dodd :)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭FFVII




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Falcon v1.2 has had over 100 flights successful flights (payload to correct orbit) in a row all with 9 engines. Falcon heavy had 27 engines firing at once.

    Rockets get lighter as fuel burns up so there's more redundancy later in the flight. Saturn V had several flights were one of the five engines shut down.

    New engines use new very cold fuel liquid methane instead of kerosene / home heating oil. One fuel ignites as easily as turning on a gas ring (actually cold enough to suck the oxygen out of the air create a bomb) , the other is twice as dense, cokes up when used to cool the engines but you could stand in a paddling pool of it and drop lighted matches into all day long.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    https://spaceflightnow.com/2021/12/06/spacex-resumes-work-on-starship-launch-pad-at-kennedy-space-center/

    Elon Musk, SpaceX’s founder and chief executive, says crews have started construction of the first Starship orbital launch pad in Florida inside the gates of historic launch complex 39A at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center.

    ...

    SpaceX is also outfitting two decommissioned offshore oil drilling platforms to serve as ocean-going launch and landing bases for Starship missions.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭3d4life



    'Physics is the law, everything else is a recommendation'

    'Success is one of the possible outcomes'

    'Success is in the set of possible outcomes'



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭3d4life



    Spoilt child saying 'it's not fair' ?

    No reason why ESA shouldnt put up their own constellation ... might be a good start to use the best value launch company :)



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    ESA are developing a reusable launcher partially in response to SpaceX taking business from Ariane The THEMIS will have Prometheus methane/LOX engines which should cost a tenth of the Vulcain that Ariane 5 uses.

    OneWeb are sending birds up on a regular basis. And there's lot and lots of little stats going up. NASA's small satellite handbook has a wealth of info. : Of the total 1,282 spacecraft launched in 2020, 94% were small spacecraft with an overall mass under 600 kg, and of those under 600 kg, 28% were under 200 kg, and 9% were nanosatellites

    Bezos wants to have a constellation too, all he needs is 7,774 satellites and someone to launch them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    a bit about JWST here (secondary mirror fully deployed now) and good footage of testing the Starship lifting arms





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    S20 has been driven in between the lowered chopstick arms, and is about to be lifted...

    from between about8:15 to 8:30 pm on the local time CST clock



    Post edited by Quantum Erasure on


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