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The Irish protocol.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    you are being pedantic. By ‘all of our people’ I meant that there was a referendum and our people decided to brexit.

    and as for my claim that most remainers accepted the will of the people to brexit. I think that is very clear as the remainers had a very big majority in Westminster but basically to a man and woman voted to invoke brexit. That seems clear to me



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Some of the things you might not be able to accept are fundamental (EU law in NI post Brexit, authority of ECJ etc.). NI can't remain in EU Single Market without this, so if Unionists reject it there is no answer.

    I think the other stuff you've criticised (bound up with customs checks and standards etc.) gets increasingly problematic and unworkable for NI the more the UK adopts a Brexit fundamentalist stance "i.e. we're not having anything whatsoever to do with them in the EU now - we're going to make a load of totally contrasting laws on everything under the sun, start a race to the bottom on different standards etc to try & grow the economy".

    So repeating myself, I think what happens is in the hands of UK govt. (Johnson & Frost). If Unionists wish the agreement to survive, it is probably their ears they really need to get into rather than complaining to EU Commission/Martin/Varadkar/Coveney etc. Unfortunately I kind of doubt it would make any difference to the outcome though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    Look at this article by Frost in the Mail on Sunday.

    The headline seems a calculated threat?

    Sefcovic made a big mistake when he said there were 'unintended consequences' caused by the protocol.

    I think it was a mistake to reengage on the protocol. The Tory government take, take, take, offer nothing, and all the while talk shıt about you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26 Angler1


    Yes but the prime minister has been appointed by the UK democratic majority and is the appointed head of state to agree and sign international agreements. As loyalists I'd expect unionists to adhere to the decisions made by the democratic head of the UK?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Just more noise really. I'm sure those on the EU side must know what they are dealing with by now. I don't think it was a mistake to engage, but there should be lines drawn. A least they kind of did that with the UKs "Article 16" clever plan. Probably another line should be drawn some time next year if the UK tries to freeze the situation where it is now indefinitely, or they start more salami tactics.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,721 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Reduced to writing gung ho articles to those who think he is giving the EU what for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Methinks a little refresher to compare the difference in importance of a non-binding referendum versus Parliamentary Sovereignty might be in order, Downcow.

    The Brexit referendum and the NI Protocol ARE entirely different....only one had actual legal standing thanks to how your self-professed mother of all parliaments that you're so pleased to belong to works.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    It read like building a case. Brexit is supposed to be done. He may be trying to explain to the faithful (Conservative voting Daily Mail edit Mail on Sunday readership in GB) why some more battling must be done with the EU dragon, in case they might not be excited by the fight any more and think its all a bit stupid/self-harming at this stage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    the only quote similar to that is that not a single elected unionist is in favour. There’s about 200 elected and not 1 is in favour. Maybe they are just not as intelligent as you francie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Not a chance. Unionists are the classic desenters. ‘Protestants’ says it all. We will hold on to the right of everyone to challenge, protest and disagree with the government of the time. It’s the essence of a loyalist



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,721 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Who do you think the block in blue vote for downcow = Unionist politicians.

    Now if you are finished protesting the obvious we'll get back to the original point, a split in the Unionist block.

    How many do you think are on your side now - those who think the Protocol is great for NI and who don't want it gone?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Unionists' supposed 'loyalty' to the UK has always been a la carte. Unionists' principle motivation has been, for centuries, keeping the Fenians down and trying to maintain dominance of the Irish nation. That explains why the hardest of hard Brexits was grasped at while the NIP is considered a betrayal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    So francie, before we move on. Will you admit that you were talking absolute nonsense when you said that unionists voted en masse on brexit?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Tom, you are also arguing something we have evidenced is rubbish. You are sectarianising the debate again. You are saying unionists want to keep the fenians down. For example are you saying that 75% of the alliance voters are trying to keep the fenians down? As 75% are unionist. Are you saying all the catholics who belong to or vote unionist are trying to keep the fenians down? Catch yourself on.

    it is sad that a few on each side continue to sectarianise every issue in ni. I don’t know if they were traumatised or radicalised - I guess it’s a mix. The irony is, these are the very people on each side who are trying to keep either the ‘Fenians’ or the ‘huns’ down



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭fash


    Yet a few posts back you were claiming that such categorization was "sectarian".



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭fash


    I believe to you use term you yourself used is "your people voted for brexit".



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Yeah, not unreasonable to point that out.

    but here is what I was responding to “As loyalists I'd expect unionists to adhere to the decisions made by the democratic head of the UK?”

    I suppose I was giving a bit of context where loyalist came out of and that expecting loyalists to conform is misunderstanding the term loyalist on ni context



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I used the term ‘our people’ in reference to every person living in the Uk. Very different to francie saying unionists voted en masse for brexit. You don’t agree with him, do you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,721 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    No.

    Why are you trying to pretend that it is not Unionists who own Brexit in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I am trying to bring you to a place where, when you are evidenced as patently wrong, that you can have the courage and integrity to say ‘apologies I was wrong’

    you said, “Unionists vote en block when they see a threat/advantage to 'the Union'. As you say...the AIA, or Brexit.”

    The facts are very very different. Only 40% of unionists voted for Brexit. Even counting only those unionists who actually went out to vote, still only 66% voted for brexit.

    I’ll not hold my breath for you accepting you are wrong

    Post edited by downcow on


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  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    85% of Catholics voted Remain compared to only 40% of Protestants, and 88% of people who describe themselves as ‘nationalist’ voted Remain compared to only 34% of ‘unionists’. Similarly, 87% of respondents who identify as Irish voted Remain, compared to only 37% of British identifiers.

    The vast majority of leave votes in Northern Ireland were from unionists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,721 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    And Unionist politicians backed it and are against the Protocol.

    Not sure why downcow is trying to back Unionism away from a, so far, very defined position. I think though that a split is forming.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Thanks for the support google. Yes exactly an I guess it is very clear to francie from both mine and your posts that unionists did not vote en masse for brexit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    SOME unionist politicians backed it so even that Mano republicans doesn’t work for you. The uup did not back it.

    now you are trying to muddy the waters to bring protocol into it. You were very clear. It was brexit and the AIA that you were referencing.

    come on francie. Step out and admit you were wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,721 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Look at the graphic again downcow. The areas where Unionists are the majority voted en block/en masse/as a group for Brexit.

    Nothing I can do about the term if you don't like it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Francie it just makes discussions pathetic and pointless if someone just keeps arguing a point everyone can see is wrong and does not have the ability to admit it and move on.

    I am not going to waste anymore time on this. Suffice to point out that all but one of the constituencies that you say voted en masse for brexit either had a pro brexit vote in the 50s% or indeed voted leave. One of the most unionist constituencies in ni voted remain. I would love to be more direct about your nonsense but I need to keep my nose clean. Sure you just post away about North Down etc voting en masse for brexit and other posters can google the facts for themselves



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,721 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If you can change the fact as laid out below, I will change the term.

    Look at the graphic again downcow. The areas where Unionists are the majority voted en block/en masse/as a group for Brexit.


    BTW, before the vote was barely counted the UUP had about faced and were trying to out DUP the DUP on Brexit such was the scare they got about Unionist sentiment.

    Moderate as Doug Beattie tries to be now as they attempt to bandwagon the opposite way again, they are still too afraid to stand outside the Unionist block/masse/group.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,640 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yes, but "most brexiters are unionists" is a very different claim to "most unionists are brexiters". "Most Brexiters are unionist" actually tell us more about nationalists than it does about unionists.

    UK political culture, between its bizarre first-past-the-post electoral system and its fairly childish attitude to referendums, often creates an impression of solid or overwhelming support for one party or one position which is, in reality, quite misleading.

    As Ads by Google points out, if there was a block vote in the 2016 referendum, it wasn't by unionists or protestants. Catholics voted 85:15 in favour of Remain; that's as close to a crushing victory for one side, and a crushing defeat for the other, as you are ever likely to get in a functioning democracy. Protestants, by contrast, were much more evenly split: 60:40 for leave.

    The result of this 60:40 vote is that a great swathe of Protestant-majority constituencies are coloured blue (or whatever colour you assign to "Leave") on a referendum results map, but in fact a large minority in that area supported remain. The highest "Leave" vote was in North Antrim: 62.2%. By contrast, six constituencies had a higher Remain vote, ranging from Newry and Armagh (62.9%) to Foyle (78.3%).

    A similar picture emerges if you look at how people who identify as "nationalist" voted (88% Remain), or people who identify as "Irish" voted (87% remain).

    One feature of the monolithic Catholic/nationalist/Irish support for Remain is its uniformity. In Britain, support for both Leave and Remain was correlated with gender, with educational attainment, and with a variety of other socioeconomic characteristics. Women were more likely to vote Remain than men; people with university degrees were more likely to vote Remain than those whose education stopped at secondary school; older people were more likely to vote Leave than younger people; etc. But in Northern Ireland, among Catholics, this was hardly true at all. There was little correlation between Remain support and age, gender, educational attainment, etc; pretty much every sub-group within the Catholic community supported Remain by pretty much the same amount; this is a solid, across-the-board, position.

    Protestants, by contrast, were much more "British" in the composition of their vote. The 40% of Protestants who voted Remain were disproportionately female, disproportionately young, disproportionately middle-class, etc, in much the way that we observe in Great Britain.

    So, the imposition of hard Brexit on NI isn't so much the imposition of something that Protestants/unionists/British en bloc want. There is no Protestant bloc position on this. There are many sub-groups within the Protestant community where a majority favour Remain. (E.g.. 55% of Protestants who went to grammar school voted "Remain".) But it is very much the imposition of something that Catholics/nationalists/Irish en bloc do not want; on the data we have there is no identifiable sub-group of Catholics that favours leaving, or even that contains a significant minority that favours leaving.

    And, on the basis that people have stronger reactions to offences, slights and insults than they do to compliments and praise, the political problems that will result from imposing hard Brexit on NI do not result because hard Brexit might possibly enjoy the support of a narrow majority of the Protestant community, but because it is certainly opposed by the overwhelming bulk of the Catholic community. It's a truism of politics that the people you offend by your policy are always more offended by it than the people you gratify are gratified by it.

    Tl; dr: It's not the supposed unionist mass support for Brexit that matters here; its the real Catholic mass support for Remain. Imposing hard Brexit on NI, given the Catholic bloc position, is obviously destabilising even if there isn't an opposing Protestant bloc position.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    That is an excellent post. I love these posts where I get something truly new illuminated. I will not demean it by drawing it into the petty squabbles that francie and me are having over whether unionists voted en mass or not.

    One of the things I find very interesting is your observation that ni unionists/loyalists fairly much mirrored Uk as a whole, while ni nationalists/republicans voted extremely differently (could I say, very like I would have expected Ireland as a whole to vote). It really does again say to me that are problem is nationalists are from Venus and unionists are from Mars. It may explain why many, less well-nuanced republicans, round on me in disbelief regularly here.

    Who am I to defend Leo, etc stance, but just maybe it is to be understood in the context above. I have accused him of being completely one-sided re supporting ni nationalist community, but maybe he was just doing what comes naturally to people from Venus without considering the feelings and aspirations of those from Mars?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,721 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    'truly new illuminated'? I think it just confirmed your bias.



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