Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

phog · 22-11-2021 10:23am

Overall it was a very successful AI period for Ireland. We scored a ton of tries and in general our defence stood up. I think the Puma try yesterday was a system failure but other than that our D was excellent across the 3 games. Did our performances silence the critics? Before the team announcement for the Japan game I thought Lowe and Conway were lucky to get the nod but they repaid the trust shown by Farrell in them, they were both excellent in the AIs.

The 6Ns will be interesting with France and England having some brilliant AI results too and Wales are always up for the 6Ns. it has the makings of being a humdinger of a tournament.

starkid · 22-11-2021 10:45am

I mean it has to be considered a very good Autumn series. it would be preverse to suggest otherwise. VDF was outstanding. Porter, Furlong, Kelleher, Doris. Outstanding.

However i'm still worried about our backline. It seemed yesterday we regressed there. it took us nearly 36 minutes to get the ball to our quickest player. And it has to be seen as disappointing seeing we didn't see a few players play. Murray isn't at the races. Carbery doesn't have that zip a top class ten needs. Its clear to see. He ships it on. I didn't want to believe it but he's a fullback playing ten. Henshaw did ok, but he needs to learn to pass. Ringrose is an excellent player. I sometimes wonder if he was born in the previous generation with acres of space would he be Drico mark ii, he's always close to a full on break but never manages it. Also there was plenty of times we had our hands free but didn't bother with the offload. Ringrose in particular. i just don't get why we are so scared of it. And its safe to say that skill is being saved for the minnow matches, exactly as it was under Joe. Until we score a try like Argentina did when the offload is clear as day as the instigator i won't change my mind. We can do it. Ringrose can offload in traffic as we saw against Japan.

I think considering what France did to NZ, we have to still see a good Six Nations. Then we will know for good where we are headed. We have a World Class pack, but getting all the tries from our pack against Argentina isn't necessarily a good thing imo. Was what we saw yesterday that far removed from Joeball? WE still won't win a World Cup playing that way, as it takes so much hard work. We seem to never be able to score a try from nothing. We always have to work our tits off. in a multi game tournament like the WC it will always be an issue. As it was the last two world cups.

We should have seen Casey start. Baird should have been in the squad from the off. Larmour probably should have gotten a run.

It has to be worrying that it looks like we are heading into another World Cup with a squad being set in stone (i.e Murray will be there i guarantee it) an overreliance on 22 attack consisting of one out runners (the NZ match had a significant period of this) and pick and go jams, and a 38 year old captain.

Its sill looking so much more positive under Farrell. He's capped what 50 players? We definitely have a bit more joy and freedom in our play. So hats off to him.

We can look forward to the Six Nations. Our pack will absolutely hammer some teams as a collective. I think having Porter in there with Furlong means the bullying we saw against England and Leinster being bullied by Sarries is less likely. They are titans. Its really transformed us. And to think some on here said it was nonsense to suggest Porter moving back. it would be much better having him on the bench.

stephen_n · 22-11-2021 11:21am

18 tries in 3 games, scored from multiple different sources. An end to the reliance on starter plays to create scores. 3 wins from 3.

I honestly don’t think we could have asked for anymore going into the AI’s. Yes there is still a lot of work to be done in terms of the backup players coming. Yes we still have a glaring issue at 10. We are in relatively good health though, especially up front. Going to be a very interesting 6N this year, can we impose that kind of physicality on the French and English packs.

On Murray, if the speed of his pass was the only issue, we could probably get away with it. It’s his speed getting to rucks, the time he takes looking left, then right, then left again before he passes the ball that was killing us. The difference with Casey was night and day in terms of getting to the ruck and making a decision. As many others have said, I would have really liked to see what Carberry would have done with that time on the ball.

OldRio · 22-11-2021 11:47am

In the first half a ruck was formed in our 22 Murray dithered about for a good while. The ref shouts use it. Murray still dithers. Some of the Argentian players appeal to the ref. Murray kicks.

To be honest how on earth the ref didn't award Argentina the ball I know not. Murray took an age.

Blue4u · 22-11-2021 11:49am

I think we need to judge Carbery when he has a chance to play with JGP/Casey for a full match. People complaining about how Sexton was past it etc when playing with Murray, now with quick ball Sexton is a different beast. Potentially the same could happen with Carbery.

sydthebeat · 22-11-2021 12:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204984#Comment_118204984

my biggest issue with murray was also in the first half, when we had a knock on advantage about 10 meters from our own line. We had numbers to his right and Argentina had compressed so there was space to move, or at least to get it to the right where we could have cleared up field to relieve pressure.

instead he took and age setting up a box kick, kicked too long, ball dropped about 27 meters out and that passage lead to carreras break where furlong? got a slap in at him and he dropped it forward with the line at his mercy.

murray has a quick pass, we've seen him do it for munster in passages. however he seems to have this mindset that hes lauded for his box kick, so he uses it too often hen other decision might be more profitable.

why i find it frustrating is that he has the physical stature to be a running threat on the fringe, but he does it so rarely that teams know hes no threat there, so they fan and blitz. He has all the tools in the belt to play in a manner closer to "JGP v Japan" biut i think theres a mentality there that he hasnt yet broken from.

aloooof · 22-11-2021 12:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205212#Comment_118205212

He used to be exceptionally good at a snipe, and showed up with more than his fair share of tries from it. It's definitely one part of his game that has regressed over the last number of seasons.

sydthebeat · 22-11-2021 12:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205282#Comment_118205282

absolutely... and he used his speed and stature to score a bag full of tries as well, from 10 yards out. test tries as ell as club.

im wondering if his speed has fall off too much over the last few years. the knock on he had when the ball was under one of our guys left foot, and he as coming at the ruck from 10 o clock, was caused due to the fact he couldn't get to that breakdown quick enough.

22-11-2021 12:56pm

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/qz85le/caelan_doris_somehow_manages_to_power_through/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Here's the entire build up to the Doris try, Ryan involved several times either carrying or clearing out, and after his final carry immediately before the try you can see him on the ground with his head up and also see him start to get up before the camera moves away, there's nothing that looks like a head injury. Anyway hope he's alright.

Doris himself carries multiple times and has one or two passes in the build up too, along with the finish is a key player for Ireland now imo.

Former Former Former · 22-11-2021 1:30pm

So, after those matches, I think the everyone-fit first choice XV is;

Keenan - nailed on

Conway - safe for now

Ringrose - great autumn, I think he'll hold Aki off but very close

Henshaw - nailed on

Lowe - safe for now, will depend on Stockdale form on return

Sexton - nailed on, as safe as ever

JGP - a big part of the new approach

Porter - nailed on, revelation at LH

Kelleher - nailed on

Furlong - best TH in the world, no debate

Ryan - if he can stop getting HIAs

Henderson - if his hamstrings hold up

Doris - potentially world class very soon

VDF - rivalling Doris for our best player of the series

Conan - just stop getting injured

arsebiscuits1 · 22-11-2021 1:44pm

Agree with your 15 FFF.

I'd only be pedantic and say you've undersold Doris in the description. I think Doris is without question in the top tier of backrows globally.

I don't think he surprised anyone with his performances this Autumn and yet they were still insanely impressive.

He'd start for any other team in the 6 Nations, he'd start for Australia and he'd give the All Blacks and South Africans some severe selection headaches I reckon.

Former Former Former · 22-11-2021 1:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205608#Comment_118205608

Yeah, I would probably agree but I'd love to see him back it up with a strong 6N too.

sydthebeat · 22-11-2021 1:59pm

Stephen jones has Doris in his world XV of the autumn series... cant really get a higher accolade than that :D

Clegg · 22-11-2021 1:59pm

I think one of the most pleasing aspects of the AIs for me is how solid our lineout was. I think we were 13/13 for accuracy yesterday? And that was across two different throwers.

In last year's Autumn tournament we had a lot of issues with overthrowing and jumpers not hitting their marks. You could see Kellehers potential in open play, but I was a bit worried that he'd never be a regular starter as he couldn't nail his set piece requirements. But those worries have evaporated now. His throwing and the jumping/lifting in the lineout has improved a lot. His play in the loose is already world class for a hooker. He has the physicality and the handling skills to be the best in the world imo.

Blue4u · 22-11-2021 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205690#Comment_118205690

Since POC has come in our lineout has been incredible, I seem to remember we had the best lineout in the 6 nations as well. The breakdown as well has a new focus on it compared to before, that is down to POC as well.

Zeugnis · 22-11-2021 2:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118179373#Comment_118179373

Carty has just signed a three year extension for Connacht, contract will run until 2025.

clsmooth · 22-11-2021 2:28pm

Our lineout has been excellent since POC came in. James Ryan has really made strides over the last year on his defensive lineout steals. He led the charts for lineout steals in the last 6N despite playing half the total minutes available. Stole a couple against NZ too. Can’t remember if he stole any yesterday

dublin49 · 22-11-2021 2:33pm

I thought Bairds Side step and charge would generate more comment,I have never ever seen anything like that that from a Lock before,(maybe only from Baird himself ) cant tell if he has every component to make a top class Lock but that cameo was special for me.

sydthebeat · 22-11-2021 2:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205871#Comment_118205871

not much comment because we've seen him do it plenty of times before in blue, and in green u20s.

he is a freak athlete who, if he can master the nuts and bolts, could be world class

aloooof · 22-11-2021 3:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205871#Comment_118205871

Brilliant bit of play alright:

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1462442085026611204

Sam Whitelock's try is always the one that comes to mind for when people mention 2nd rows running it in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsoAIGPBmVE&ab_channel=RugbyRealm

Thomas Ahern is another player for us that comes to mind for that kind of thing. Should have passed here but looks to have serious gas for a lock. If both Baird and Ahern develop to their potential, we will have serious options at lock.

https://twitter.com/threeredkings/status/1333691052042166273

22-11-2021 3:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206192#Comment_118206192

Second time this season Baird has had the ball in space and slowed down before contact. Had he gone full tilt into the tackle I think he'd have broken it.

Must love hardship · 22-11-2021 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206504#Comment_118206504

Maybe he is looking for the offload and not trying to run the ball into contact like stander did.

22-11-2021 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206547#Comment_118206547

The problem with Stander running into contact was that he did it before the 40m break and not after.

Would like to have seen Baird back himself there.

RichieRich_89 · 22-11-2021 4:16pm

The way Kinsella speeds all his GIFs up makes Baird look like Usain Bolt there.

Blue4u · 22-11-2021 4:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206504#Comment_118206504

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206611#Comment_118206611

Running at full speed and a player jumping at you from the side I am not sure any player could have broken the tackle. Yes if going head first into the player, he slowed to jink and then continue to try and get past the tackle, which nearly worked only the Argie got his book and was wuickly helped by the other player tracking back.

22-11-2021 4:37pm

https://twitter.com/OptaJonny/status/1462797330952904712?s=20

Doris made the most carries and joint hit the most rucks of any player during the AIs, very impressive workrate. Conan would have had the most carries comfortably if he'd played yesterday, was on 32 after the Japan and NZ games.

Clegg · 22-11-2021 4:54pm

What's very impressive about Doris's carrying is his footwork going into contact. He's able to swerve at the last moment and hit the weak shoulder rather than run head on into contact. Gets him an extra metre in the carry constantly.

It's what sets him apart from Stander in that regard. I've a lot of respect for what CJ did with Ireland, but I think we've moved beyond what he brought to the table.

crossman47 · 22-11-2021 4:59pm

Theres a real conundrum at second row now because I feel Beirne has to be accommodated somewhere. For a while i thought Ryan was not at his best but hes come back.

Dubinusa · 22-11-2021 5:11pm

Was very impressed with Kelleher. Set piece has improved. His tackling is superb and he's very comfortable with the ball. I did have reservations about him and I thought that Herring would have held him off. Kelleher looks very comfortable right now. Absolutely deserved his starts.

POM has been outstanding this season. Very impressive indeed. He's putting himself around and is probably playing his best rugby in years.

I think Connors will have a tough time cracking the squad right now. Very high calibre of play at the minute.

I think VDF was our best player throughout. Furlong right there too! But, everybody played well enough to be in the running for the 6nations. That said, Casey could leapfrog Murray. Vastly faster around the pitch and always looking for a break through the defense.

phily2002 · 22-11-2021 5:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206821#Comment_118206821

2nd row is looking very healthy for us. Ryan, Hendo and Beirne all played brilliantly and Baird showed what he brings to the table.

Forwards in general are looking very positive with lots of depth. Connors back now as well, if he gets back to form he could be starting 7 come 6 nations but VDF also getting better each game.

Clegg · 22-11-2021 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206881#Comment_118206881

Have to disagree on Connors. The form of VDF is such that he's undroppable at the moment.

A year ago I would have said that Connors was a better player than VDF. They have similar skillsets, but the former was a better carrier and offloader. But VDF has improved his game so much that he's now one of the most complete players in Ireland.

Unfortunately, the backrow is one of the most attritional positions in rugby. No doubt there'll be an injury down the line and Connors will get his chance again.

arsebiscuits1 · 22-11-2021 5:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206625#Comment_118206625

Not sped up Rich. Baird is really that quick

Jump_In_Jack · 22-11-2021 5:46pm

In real time I thought Baird should have gone outside the tackler and tried to burn him on the outside, but maybe on the replay the tackler had narrowed the space down?

22-11-2021 5:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206693#Comment_118206693

Baird almost got away having slowed down, would like to see him either aggressively attack the space or run over the defender. I feel he chose the worst of both worlds (on both occasions) by hesitating.

Clegg · 22-11-2021 6:02pm

I've just watched a clip of the Doris try from yesterday. I've revised my opinion of him being potentially world class to him actually being world class right now.

For his try we started off with a lineout on our own 10 metre line. We crossed the Argentinian try line 90 seconds later and in that time time Doris carried 5 times, offloaded twice and passed once. The workrate alone is elite level, but coupled with the fact that he was making it beyond the gainline with his carries and continuing play with offloads and passes? The man is an utter freak.

He was my MoTM yesterday and our player of the series.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/qz85le/caelan_doris_somehow_manages_to_power_through/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

RichieRich_89 · 22-11-2021 6:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206985#Comment_118206985

Sure.

All Kinsella's GIFs are sped up, probably 1.25 times real speed.

Dubinusa · 22-11-2021 6:31pm

This 6nations will be a belter. I don't think anyone will complete the slam. We have a great chance and I think we can win. England and France are looking very strong. Will Lady luck stay with Wales? Jaysus! I can't wait.

Dubinusa · 22-11-2021 6:32pm

Jack Carty with a 3 year deal with Connacht! I wonder if AF had a chat with him? He's really not far off!

bilston · 22-11-2021 6:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118207220#Comment_118207220

Once Sexton retires he is one Joey Carbery injury away from being at least in the 23. Decent chance he will win a few more Irish caps.

Wegians89 · 22-11-2021 6:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118207267#Comment_118207267

Would love to see Carty at 10 and Carbery at 15 at some point before the World Cup. Give Carbery the kicking duties.

RichieRich_89 · 22-11-2021 6:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118207267#Comment_118207267

You'll get the usual suspects started, saying he's sixth choice behind Sexton, Carbery, Byrne, Burns and Byrne. Or maybe even further down, because Healy was needed for Munster's tour of SA, so they didn't want to disrupt that.

Podge_irl · 22-11-2021 7:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118207267#Comment_118207267

That's a very generous way of saying "4th choice"

Stanley 1 · 22-11-2021 7:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206875#Comment_118206875

What about Dan Leavy, is he injured again, surely he is good enough to get his Leinster place back, 6/7.

Former Former Former · 22-11-2021 7:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118207220#Comment_118207220

Tbh I doubt Farrell made any promises.

Realistically, Carty is the starting ten for an Irish province. That's a nice job to have. He was very unlikely to move one way or the other. A three year contract is a sweet deal too.

Faugheen · 22-11-2021 7:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118207428#Comment_118207428

Who do you drop for Leavy?

Doris, VDF and Conan as a unit is playing incredibly at the moment. Leavy hasn't had a proper run in 2 and a half years and in that time everyone around him has only got better.

I don't think we'll ever see Leavy in green again. I obviously hope I'm wrong but I don't see where he fits.

Clegg · 22-11-2021 7:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118207428#Comment_118207428

I don't think we'll ever see Leavy hit his 2018 form again unfortunately. His knees are in shreds. He has done brilliantly just to get back to playing pro rugby.

sxt · 22-11-2021 7:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205556#Comment_118205556

I would put Aki as nailed on at 12, he has constantly played and performed in that position, he is not competing with ringrose for the 13 Jersey

I don't think Sexton is nailed on at 10. 50/50 with carberry

I don't think JGP is either. 50/50 with Craig casey

molloyjh · 22-11-2021 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118207577#Comment_118207577

There is no way Sexton is 50/50 with Carbery. No way at all. And JGP is absolutely nailed on. Casey is 3rd choice as it stands. He isn’t threatening JGP until he can at least oust Murray.

sxt · 22-11-2021 8:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118207605#Comment_118207605

I believe they have to go with carberry next year if he is fit and performing like he showed yesterday. Going with a late thirties Sexton who is understandlby more injury prone, would be a backwards decision in my opinion. They have to brave and show they have ambition and trust in other players. The same reason Sexton was excluded from the lions tour will be even more pronounced 2 years into the future

sxt · 22-11-2021 8:12pm

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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