The Ivermectin discussion

odyssey06 · 20-11-2021 8:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198397#Comment_118198397

Where is your source for the WHO approving the contents of the kit?

What were the contents of the kit?

And I don't mean the dark hole of the internet you get your fake news from.

The Uttar Pradesh state government has initiated house-to-house active case finding of COVID-19 in rural areas to contain transmission by testing people with symptoms for rapid isolation, disease management and contact tracing.

The kits were given to those who tested positive, but more importantly... all the contacts of those who test positive are quarantined and tested. But yeah, it must have been Ivermectin... how Ivermectin given to someone after they test positive is supposed to help prevent spread is not clear - bearing in mind all properly run trials have found no therapeutic benefit to Ivermectin.

Lumen · 21-11-2021 9:25am

There are references to Ivermectin being included in the kits on a couple of what look like mainstream news sites, but they also included vitamins, ORS and paracetamol so either they were throwing everything at the wall or using the opportunity to bundle up things which are generally useful to people underserved by medical services.

Where's the thread on paracetamol curing Covid?

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/lucknow-news/yogi-adityanath-launches-covid-19-medical-kits-for-covid-19-symptomatic-children-101623747649057.html

https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/yogi-flags-off-distribution-of-covid-med-kits-for-kids/amp_articleshow/83558719.cms

23-11-2021 12:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116246809#Comment_116246809

Or Bobby Ryan 🤣

PureIsle · 23-11-2021 1:55pm

Tokyo and Covid:

https://twitter.com/PierreKory/status/1462623647156289539?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1462623647156289539%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fdiscussion%2F2058140590%2Fthe-ivermectin-discussion%2Fp40

Japan and Covid:

https://twitter.com/ClareCraigPath/status/1462682549306761219

https://tfiglobalnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/tfiglobalnews.com/2021/11/08/japan-crushes-big-pharma-with-a-small-yet-effective-move/amp/

astrofool · 23-11-2021 2:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210636#Comment_118210636

Japan hasn't approved Ivermectin, that line is following Japan's vaccine rollout which was lagging months behind Europe, he's just posted proof that vaccines work but is trying to put the credit on Ivermectin.

He's a grifter and shill.

BorneTobyWilde · 23-11-2021 3:01pm

No one knows what to believe. What seems to be genuine people who are Doctors claiming it works, then some journalist writing an article about how it doesn't . Who do you believe.

People who use ivermectin that was made for animals in doses that were made for animals are idiots, but the FDA Approved Human Version does stop the virus multiplying one in the body?

odyssey06 · 23-11-2021 3:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210985#Comment_118210985

Well don't believe anyone claiming Ivermectin is in use in Japan for starters, even if they are Doctors, unless they have some actual proof of that.

Lots of the world's major health authorities have looked at Ivermectin, and don't see anything to justify it's approval.

A 1500 patient trial run by McMaster university was stopped because Ivermectin (the human version) was having zero effect as a therapy.

PureIsle · 23-11-2021 3:50pm

It seems some do not read.

Kory highlighted the date that Ivermectin was recommended in Tokyo.

The Japanese health officials have no idea what has caused the reduction in Covid there.

Most say they are "puzzled". They also say it cannot be vaccination alone.

Kory apparently hypothesises that IVM is involved. For me that is not shown anywhere, but his hypothesis is as valid as most until it is shown to be unfounded and a better explanation of the "puzzle" that is Japan appears.

23-11-2021 3:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848806#Comment_117848806

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848104#Comment_117848104

And herein lies the duality of your anti-vax pseudo scientist.

"I can't believe that you won't believe these cherry-picked doctors and medical professionals. Never mind that they seem to be being misquoted and their results are being misrepresented to say something they aren't, everyone should believe them because they're doctors"

"Cool.....what about the medical professionals who advocate taking the vaccine"

"fcuk them lads, bought and paid for the lot of 'em, sure you couldn't trust a single one of them"

23-11-2021 4:05pm

https://apnews.com/article/business-science-health-coronavirus-pandemic-c2b50063ac65943686a4995a6cf230c3

This week, the top U.S. professional groups for doctors and pharmacists appealed for an “immediate end” to the drug’s use outside of research. “We are urging physicians, pharmacists, and other prescribers — trusted healthcare professionals in their communities — to warn patients against the use of ivermectin outside of FDA-approved indications and guidance,” said the American Medical Association and two pharmacist groups.

What about these medical professionals? Like, why are you going out of your way to find any evidence, no matter how ropey, to use to dismiss people who's entire career is built on studying and advising on this kind of thing?

By mid-August U.S. pharmacies were filling 88,000 weekly prescriptions for the medication, a 24-fold increase from pre-COVID levels, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Meanwhile, U.S. poison control centers have seen a five-fold increase in emergency calls related to the drug, with some incidents requiring hospitalization

More irony staring everyone in the face. How did we ever get to the stage where people are mistrusting of 'experimental' vaccines yet are happy enough to bang a load of livestock medicine into their system while calling everyone else sheep.

ligind · 23-11-2021 4:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210985#Comment_118210985

The flccc doctors for example have had 2 of their papers retracted this year , they also touted some studies that now it seems may never have actually happened.

The Japan tweet by Kory earlier in the thread is fairly bizarre.

Some of the "journalists" are people who analysed the ivm studies and found significant issues that lead to a number of retractions.

There is no evidence that ivm stops the virus multiplying in the body ,there was laboratory work that showed it did have an impact but required ivm levels that would not be possible in humans.

23-11-2021 4:23pm

That Kory doctor is an Ivermectin Shill and at this stage at best dubious

He had a paper retracted recently (November 2021) as a hospital which had data cited in the paper corrected the mortality data which was completely incorrect in a manner to make his/FLCCC MATH+ protocol (that includes Ivermectin and which he had testified to Senate about) to appear effective.

Furthermore, less than half of the patients were on the protocol and of those who were, the mortality rate was actually high!

Like that is major data manipulation. The MATH don't add up!

‘We have conducted a careful review of our data for patients with COVID-19 from March 22, 2020 to July 20, 2020, which shows that among the 191 patients referenced in Table 2 that the mortality rate was 10.5%, rather than 6.1%.

In addition, of those 191 patients, only 73 patients (38.2%) received at least 1 of the 4 MATH+ therapies, and their mortality rate was 24.7%. Only 25 of 191 patients (13.1%) received all 4 MATH+ therapies, and their mortality rate was 28%.’

https://retractionwatch.com/2021/11/09/bad-math-covid-treatment-paper-by-pierre-kory-retracted-for-flawed-results/

odyssey06 · 23-11-2021 4:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211323#Comment_118211323

The puzzle is why anyone would believe this fake news.

It wasn't even recommended. That was one doctor on a solo run who was chair of a non statutory medical organisation. It was never recommended by any official medical authority or body.

Ivermectin is not listed as an approved treatment for the virus by Japan's Pharmaceuticals and Medical Devices Agency, a government organization in charge of reviewing drugs and medical devices. Inaccurate claims that Japan authorized ivermectin for COVID-19 began circulating online after Haruo Ozaki, chairman of the Tokyo Medical Association, recommended the drug for COVID-19 patients during a press conference on Aug. 13. The medical group and Ozaki are not affiliated with the Japanese government, and members of the organization can only provide suggestions

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/11/05/fact-check-japan-has-not-halted-vaccines-ivermectin/6232580001/

23-11-2021 4:39pm

Here's an interesting article on Kory and Marik and the FLCCC that's worth 10 minutes reading whatever side of the discussion you are on

Covid 19 is not their first rodeo - they have a pre-covid background in giving people false hope in other areas of medicine (Sepsis)

Aside from the fact that they had some initial success (with others) with steroids that does reduce death in some serious cases (needs to be carefully prescribed), which they leveraged off, since then they have been worthy of scepticism

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-ivermectin-being-used-treat-covid-2-doctors-leading-charge-2021-9?r=US&IR=T

23-11-2021 5:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210985#Comment_118210985

That is why you should not believe people. You should believe the studies their positions are based on. It does not matter if they are a "journalist" a "doctor" or a "homeless vagrant". Who is saying things is not as important as the evidence upon which they are saying it.

So do not confuse yourself with worrying about what their background is - worry about the hard and actual data they are citing (if any) when pushing their opinion.

There is for example a study showing that Ivermectin inhibits the viruses ability to replicate. But in a petri dish. "In vitro" results as they are called do not translate into real world biological bodies all that often. The best a positive

Worse the dosage required to even get that result in a petri dish is many 100s of times larger than any human dose or even animal dose.

So no there is no data - from journalists or doctors - that I am aware of that suggests it has any positive effect on Covid in the body or that it has any benefit whatsoever in A) Treating or B) Preventing such an infection.

So what you get instead is people - usually but not always people who are entirely lay people when it comes to this kind of science - pointing at how Ivermectin distribution was correlated with positive effects on Covid Numbers or Hospital numbers. Usually while 100% ignoring all the other things that correlated at the same time.

The example of this I have seen most is when "medicine packs" were distributed in one country with quite a few things - including masks as it happens - inside it. While at the same time an agressive program of testing and isolation and education was performed. And during all of this Covid numbers dramatically dropped in that country. So the Ivermectin fetishists noted that yes indeed it was one of the things in that medicine pack - ignored everything else that was done at the same time and everything else that was in the pack etc etc etc - and declared this to be evidence that Ivermectin works.

It would be like me giving all of Ireland a pack with 20 different drugs - engaging in a lot of testing in all IRish counties at the same time - strictly isolating anyone who tests positive - educating everyone else on hygiene and distancing rules rigorously - dropping a hammer on everyones foot - and coming out at the end and saying "The COVID numbers just dropped massively - dropping hammers on peoples feet must cure it - look how the numbers went down when we did it!!!".

That really is the intellectual level we have to deal with on some of the people pushing this drug at the moment.

Does not mean of course that tomorrow or next month or next year some data might come out showing the drug works. Keep an open mind and all! There just is none so far. Like really. None at all.

astrofool · 23-11-2021 5:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211323#Comment_118211323

Care to respond? What health officials are puzzled? The drop is pretty much matching other countries during the vaccine rollout so they're pretty bad health officials if they can't figure out the link.

Especially as IVM isn't being used in any widespread way in Japan.

circadian · 24-11-2021 3:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118211345#Comment_118211345

I can't tell if you're saying I'm an anti-vax pseudo scientist?

PintOfView · 25-11-2021 10:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198397#Comment_118198397

Here is a link to the WHO page about this

Nowhere on that page does it mention Ivermectin!

and just in case you have some difficulty in reading the pertinent part of the text I will even quote it for you

"WHO, which supported Uttar Pradesh government in training and micro planning for the activity, now has field officers on the ground to monitor and share real-time feedback with the government for immediate corrective action to ensure quality. On the inaugural day, WHO field officers monitored over 2,000 government teams and visited at least 10,000 households. WHO will also support the Uttar Pradesh government on the compilation of the final reports."

Any further information on this you want get it yourself!

Do you mean that I have to search around to see if Ivermectin was at all connected with this initiative? Why can't you just provide a link that shows why you think this?

At the bottom of that same page you linked to here is what they said:

"Those with symptoms are tested and given medicine kits and information on quarantining and isolation, both at home and in hospitals. People without signs of COVID-19 are urged to get vaccinated and follow COVID-appropriate behaviours to prevent transmission in rural areas of India’s most populated state."

So why are they only saying that people should get vaccinated? No mention of Ivermectin!

Lumen · 25-11-2021 10:12am

@PureIsle wrote

The Japanese health officials have no idea what has caused the reduction in Covid there.

Most say they are "puzzled". They also say it cannot be vaccination alone.

Article is behind registration wall but worth a read.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2021/11/18/national/delta-variant-self-destruction-theory/

Why did Japan’s fifth and biggest wave of the coronavirus pandemic, driven by the supercontagious delta variant, suddenly come to an abrupt end following a seemingly relentless rise in new infections? And what made Japan different from other developed countries that are now seeing a fresh surge in new cases?

According to one group of researchers, the surprising answer may be that the delta variant took care of itself in an act of “self-extinction.

Three months after the delta variant spurred record daily nationwide caseloads of nearly 26,000, new COVID-19 infections in Japan have plummeted, dropping below 200 in recent weeks. Highlighting that drop was the fact that no deaths were reported on Nov. 7 — the first time that had happened in about 15 months

Many scholars point to a variety of possibilities, which include one of the highest vaccination rates among advanced countries with 75.7% of residents fully vaccinated as of Wednesday. Other potential factors are the social distancing and mask-wearing measures that are now deeply embedded in Japanese society.

But the chief reason may be related to the genetic changes that the coronavirus undergoes during reproduction, at a pace of around two mutations per month. According to a potentially revolutionary theory proposed by Ituro Inoue, a professor at the National Institute of Genetics, the delta variant in Japan accumulated too many mutations to the virus’s error-correcting, non-structural protein called nsp14. As a result, the virus struggled to repair the errors in time, ultimately leading to “self-destruction.”

Studies have shown that more people in Asia have a defense enzyme called APOBEC3A that attacks RNA viruses, including the SARS-CoV-2 virus that causes COVID-19, when compared to people in Europe and Africa.

25-11-2021 10:25am

^ To add to that article above - one thing that has been bothering me about vaccination rates in countries - and anti vax people or pro Ivermectin people citing them - is that I have seen very little talk about relative rates and what they mean. In fact I confess my own relative ignorance on this too in that I would prefer people better informed go into it deeper than I would.

What I mean is, let us say you have three countries and their vaccination rates are 69% 72% and 75%. And people are thinking "We are so confused why Japan has such great numbers. It can not be the vaccine alone - sure they are only 3% ahead of one competing country and 6% ahead the next!"

Are such people assuming a linear scale here? Is such an assumption warranted? Should the effect we observe between country A and B - be the same as that between B and C?

Or is it possible that the effects are non-linear and at certain thresholds (such as reaching the threshold for herd immunity in some vaccines) the effect measured is much greater from one 3% jump than another?

One point of vaccination of any disease in general is to close off transmission vectors in a society. That is part of what herd immunity means for example. I would suspect that even a seemingly small % advantage one country has over another in terms of uptake - can have a non linear larger observable end effect on the virus than the average person suspects.

Strangely I do not see the more vocal people mention this however. Including retired nurse John Campbell (though admittedly I have only digested about 10% of his released materials so apologies if he actually has!).

PureIsle · 25-11-2021 11:57am

In the case of Japan, and their sudden drop in infections and deaths, I fail to see how Ivermectin could be in any way causal.

IVM was not universally used, so even if it could stop the virus dead in its tracks, to have that happen within 2 weeks of a statement purporting to allow people to use it is not believable.

If it were a roll out similar to Uttar Pradesh then I could see a very strong correlation but not in the case of Japan.

There is a theory that the virus just mutated itself out of existence, in a somewhat similar manner to what is theorised about Covid-1.

That appears to be as valid a theory as any other.

25-11-2021 12:10pm

^ Further a statement "allowing people to use it" is irrelevant while evaluating the statistics on the matter. A statement is not medicine. To have any relevance at all one would have to measure actual implementation of such a statement (if any). How was it being used before the statement. How was it being used after. What was the actual transition time between the two in increments? Was uptake instant? Linear? Scalar? What is the period of effect meant to be? What is even the effect meant to be, treatment or prevention? And much more.

Those simply saying "Here is a graph of infections and a statement was made by one guy on this date" are literally saying nothing at all but using as many words as possible in which to say it.

PintOfView · 25-11-2021 9:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220086#Comment_118220086

Agreed. And if Ivermectin was involved in the sudden reduction in Covid in Japan, then it would surely have involved large quantities of the drug being distributed and administered to a significant percentage of the population, and in a short timescale. To achieve this large quantities of the drug would need to be manufactured, procured, and distributed, and there would surely be evidence of this, and it should be easy to verify. This whole claim about Japan is completely implausible, and doesn't hold any water, imo.

NaFirinne · 26-11-2021 12:32pm

Dr. John Campbell covers the Japanese usage of ivermectin quite well.

While it's not offically used the Japananese Governemnt did allow their people to determine themselves if the want to use it or not.

But it's not conclusive that it caused the reduction. I wonder if there has been large side effects to actually using this in Japan. As from what I gather if the human form of Ivermectin is taken in the recommended dosages that the side effects are not harmfull.

I wish more goverments would allow there doctors to be allowed to prescribe it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1GF0H9V_1g&t=9s

NaFirinne · 26-11-2021 12:46pm

The current vaccines unfortuntely don't stop the spread of infection. we can see that the most vaccinated countries are experiencing sharp rises in cases over the winter months.

However it does look like they are reducing the number of deaths greatly. However we do need to keep up the booster shots regularly to keep that up as the current vaccines appear to waine over a short period of time.

We might need something that works as treatment as no one still knows what the long term effects of having all these new types of vaccines so regularly will have.

PeadarCo · 26-11-2021 2:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118225836#Comment_118225836

The problem is Ivermectin is proven not to work. Any credible study shows it doesn't work. The company that makes it doesn't think it works. There is plenty of research being done on treatments that actually work and have actual evidence that they work. Many of these treatments are actually used on top of that.

The reason I think Ivermectin has been adopted as the drug of day for conspiracy theorists is that its a more respectable way to say the pandemic(or at least the severity) is a hoax/plot. If only we used X drug in this case Ivermectin the whole pandemic would go away. You can't do the same with paracetamol or any other medication in widespread use.

26-11-2021 4:03pm

^ Actually I genuinely have forgotten why the - shall we call them alternative medicine types - focused on Ivermectin and then the discussion got so polarised. Is it partly traceable back to Trump maybe? Did he tout it and it went down hill from there and became a Pro-Anti Trump thing?

I genuinely can't remember any more :)

26-11-2021 4:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118225758#Comment_118225758

John the retired nurse does not "cover" anything very well at all. He reads things very well - in a very pleasant to listen to voice - but he really does not "Cover" anything well at all. I took apart his video on Vitamin D for example and the plethroa of ways he showed he has no idea how to read a report - let alone an actual scientific study.

And that is not a fault against him - reading studies of that nature is not part of the training he would have had to do the work he did. Expecting him to know how to dissect a study is like expecting a car mechanic to know the physics rules of combustion. It's just not required for his job even if he - just like the mechanic - work with the results of that science every day!

But a lot of people who see the word "Dr." in front of a name of someone like him do not realise that. It's amazing - for example - just how little neurosurgeons have to know about neurology.

That little rant over though - even I have to admit that his Japan video was not his worst. Except for him starting it off with that nudge nudge "I guess it's all a coincidence" lark - he did better than his usual fare here. But again - he did not cover it so much as just read it out. I do like his voice I have to say. I could listen to him read the phone book.

mcmoustache · 28-11-2021 2:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227318#Comment_118227318

I don't think it was Trump touting this one. It was just the usual cranks and quacks (or alternative medicine types as you kindly described them). I think that what polarised the discussion was that one group was believing the quacks and the other was believing the consensus among the medical community and those two sides didn't agree with each other.

From my own point of view, I think it would be great if it could be shown to work. The more tools we have to fight covid, the better. On the other hand, I'm a bit confused about the end-game here. What it ivermectin turns out to be a miracle cure for covid? Are we expecting the global population to take a pill every day when we already have vaccines that can be taken once every six months?

PureIsle · 28-11-2021 9:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118235371#Comment_118235371

Trump voiced his opinion on Hydroxychloroquin.

The 'quacks' as you term them are as, and a lot of times better, qualified than any of the 'consensus among the medical community' persons you chose to believe.

That is what is really wrong with your denigrating the alternative view as "quackery" in the modern sense.

I suppose you do know that medical doctors were the ones known as quacks before they were organised into what they have now become.

If you truly want to know whether IVM works or not the you should be supporting those who are calling for 'official' studies and not deliberately doing your best to dismiss its possible use as a treatment by referring dismissively to those who hold that view.

That belies your claim that "it would be great if it could be shown to work".

The Ivermectin discussion

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