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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    restrictions are down to weak cowardly politicians and nothing more


    irish people are built no different to british people yet they have no restrictions relative to us



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You mean England..

    Scotland and Wales and soon NI have vaccine passports/covid passes



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,161 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    The "damn virus" is of a vanishingly small risk to those under 40. If those in that age group have already had their vaccinations it's hardly a priority. It's a small risk to those under 60, even 70 who don't have underlying conditions of a serious nature. If those who do get a booster then fine. Large scale studies into the efficacy of the vaccines showed strong immune system memory cell response that lingered for at least six months more like eight and actually improved over time(and that included delta). Now only a few months later those studies were apparently wrong? We have one of the more vaccinated populations and yet case numbers are flying up. Indeed Europe is now the hotbed of infection rates yet it has one of the highest vaccine uptakes as a region. Here in Ireland, Waterford the county with the highest percentage of vaccinated in the country currently has a covid infection rate three times higher than the average for the country. There's an awful lot of contradiction going on. This talk of boosters is IMHO both a good thing for the very old, the already unwell and vulnerable, but also with a large sideorder of the government being seen to be doing something in the face of these clear contradictions and general panic going into winter time and more trollies in hosptial corridors(as has been the case for decades). Same goes for the frankly farcical ballsology of closing pubs and the like at midnight, a move that only a dribbling moron would believe makes any difference medically and scientifically. While they're hell bent on keeping open the schools when it's clear to a blind man that they're sources of transmission(and have been for a while).

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I am not sure what your first sentence is in reference to. Of course it would create an immune response. Every vaccine you get at any time should do that. I have absolutely zero doubt that a third vaccine would create an immune response.

    The doubts for me lie in the utility of doing that - not in our ability to do it. The studies which suggested waning effectiveness have been too different in their criteria (as I said some measuring effectiveness against infection and others measuring clinical outcomes). For example the study "Protection of BNT162b2 vaccine booster against Covid19 in israel" available on source NEJM showed an absolute risk reduction of 7 cases per 100000 person days but there was a lot of flaws in that study and how we can assess it.

    They were unable to measure effectiveness at all in the 16-39 group because the rate of severe outcomes was too small. I myself am slightly outside that group (42) but health and fitness wise I would probably effectively be well within it.

    The article about the study is a little strange too. The study itself said that those with three doses have "adding a third dose was estimated to be 93% effective in preventing COVID-19-related admission to hospital, 92% in preventing severe disease, and 81% in preventing COVID-19-related death" but the article about the study to which you lined said "compared with individuals who received only two doses five months prior, individuals who received three doses of the vaccine (7 days or more after the third dose) had 93% lower risk of COVID-19-related hospitalization, 92% lower risk of severe COVID-19 disease, and 81% lower risk of COVID-19-related death."

    That is a strange deviation or am I misreading something badly there given I had to speed read it all (I am at work)? It appears on my first reading that the study is saying for example that your risk reduction at three doses is 93% while the article is saying that it is 93% compared with two doses. Two massively different claims! But I will have to read it more carefully tonight if I find time :)

    But yea as I said I am not choosing to avoid boosters and have nothing against them. I just do not feel all that motivated by them or that they are all that important to me. And I am less than convinced on the data so far about how fast the vaccines effects are waning. A study showing you have slightly better protection on three than two - is after all much different that a study showing the effect on those with two is actively waning.

    But still a lot more for me to read on it for sure. Don't know how anyone is keeping up on all the stuff appearing out there! I sure am not! But I would say that the picture of evidence and data will look a lot different come January when you/I are likely to be called for one.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'd largely agree with a lot of that

    I'm still getting my booster though and will continue to do so when advised untill this unfortunate mess is over and would urge the same to anyone offered it

    Every day is a learning day with this virus and untill I'm given a reason more compelling not to get more jabs versus getting them,I'll be there

    Its as simple as,and as neither under or over analysed as that for me

    I don't see the point



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  • Registered Users Posts: 908 ✭✭✭coastwatch


    This may be one of the studies that indicated waning effectiveness of the J&J vaccine.

    "The decline was most significant with the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, with vaccine effectiveness plummeting from 88% to 3%."



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    All of that is true and good stuff Marine. But I think I take a more global view of it alongside a personal view.

    One of the main talking points (such as they are) that Anti Vaxxers have is the side effects of vaccines.

    The problem for their anti vax narrative of course is that the benefits across an entire society of vaccination is so many multitudes more stark than the very minor and rare number of side effects. Let alone serious side effects.

    Vaccination is therefore defensible on the basis that the disparity between the harm-benefit ratio is a chasm so wide that even with their bias glasses on they can not see the other side.

    When it comes to boosters however - that disparity chasm shorten remarkably quickly and remarkably starkly. We are risking all the same side effects (maybe even more) for a comparatively much much smaller gain.

    Which is not to say boosters are a bad thing. They absolutely are not. But the burden of evidence for benefit and when talking about things like waning rates and efficacy fall offs and variances in clinical outcomes is a little higher. We should be well sure of what we are doing - why we are doing it - and at what intervals.

    With any medical intervention across large groups (let alone the entire population of the planet) we should of course be holding ourself to high standards of evidence. But some things to my mind require a higher standard than others.

    It is unfortunate to see the booster for Covid being compared with Annual Flu Vaccines though. Including (not by you I think) on this thread a few times. Not the first time - and in the first weeks of Covid I myself was guilty of this badly - Covid has been compared to Flu unjustifiably. They are very different things.

    The reasons for promoting boosters for Covid are because A) people suspect the efficacy of the first two are waning and B) some of the "one shot" vaccines are suspected to be significantly less effective than two shots and need to be helped along. While the reasons for promoting annual Flu vaccines is that these are not really boosters at all - but modified vaccines to deal with a modified virus. The annual flu vaccine is effectively (if not pedantically) a new vaccine for a new disease(s) each time. Or a new combination even.

    Covid boosters are not that (yet).

    And in fact we do not vaccinate against "the" flu as there is no such thing. Rather we vaccinate against several strains at once which have been deemed most likely to be troublesome in that given time.

    And actually the effect Covid policies have had on Flu and Flu vaccines may turn out to be quite a bad thing! Counter-intuitively the impact our policies have had on preventing not just Covid but the Flu - has undermined much of ability to plan for the next flu season and create an effective vaccine. Where we had 6 or more months of useful data before a flu season hit - and also people getting sick and recovering contributing to annual immunity - we have not had that as much in the 20/21 season. Which could be bad. But hopefully not!



  • Registered Users Posts: 962 ✭✭✭Burty330


    Scotland, Wales and NI have no restrictions whatsoever. We were betrayed by this government when they put the fully vaxed under cerfews



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,161 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    As far as breakthrough infections/positive tests goes and the non vaccinated are way higher on that score, as expected. In that study of which there is the one, there is no follow up on the effects of the vaccines over time on serious illness, hospitalisation and death. Which the author(s) note:

    It is not yet clear whether reductions in vaccine protection against infection will translate into similar reductions in protection against hospitalization and death.

    In other studies(and more of them) all the vaccines showed drops in antibody levels, but a consistent more lasting response in immune system memory cells to the virus, including delta and this increased over time, particularly with J&J AZ and Moderna.

    The vaccines biggest boon has been the reduction of serious illness and death from covid. Their efficacy in reducing transmission and infection was seen early enough on to be more limited and would fade over time, but still significantly better than in the non vaccinated population. If the vaccines continue to hold against serious illness and death for the majority who aren't old or compromised in health(where boosters should be in play) then that's different story.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,438 ✭✭✭NSAman


    Simple, live in the states.

    go on ANY pharmacy website, walgreens, Walmart, etc. and book any of the three boosters.

    Have read the thread and find the response in Ireland, so crazy.

    like many I have done a lot of research, J&J was the one for me. Aparently I had covid in the beginning of pandemic january 2020 according to my doctor. Was vaccinated as soon as I could get it. Didn’t want an mRNA vaccine, the ease of getting boosters here is one positive of living in the USA. Choice!

    seems to me that someone is implementing your choices in Ireland. We don’t have “X” booster, but shure the other ones will do fine.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Vaccine passports/covid passes are restrictions (Scotland ,Wales and NI)

    Wearing masks on TFL and in airports are restrictions

    Wearing a mask in a hospital is a restriction

    but let's not drag this thread off topic



  • Registered Users Posts: 962 ✭✭✭Burty330


    No, covid passes were meant to lift restrictions for those who had them. Mad max was referring to restrictions, not void passes. There are no restrictions for people with passports in the UK. It should be the same here but the government betrayed us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,712 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Wales have a COVID pass same as here:

    Wales NHS Covid pass: What is it and how do I get one? - BBC News

    NI are bringing one in, Scotland likely to as well.

    Care to try again?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Scotland do have vaccinated only into night clubs

    That is a restriction there


    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-58422607



  • Registered Users Posts: 962 ✭✭✭Burty330


    Wales have no restrictions for covid pass holders, how many more times must it be said?



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,712 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Wales have these restrictions for everyone:

    1. Businesses, employers and other organisations must continue to undertake a specific coronavirus risk assessment and take reasonable measures to minimise exposure to, and the spread of, coronavirus.
    2. Everyone must continue to self-isolate for 10 days if they test positive for COVID-19. If you are a close contact of someone who has tested positive and you are aged 18 or over and not fully vaccinated, you must also self-isolate for 10 days. 
    3. Adults and children aged 11 and over must continue to wear face-coverings in indoor public places, with the exception of hospitality settings such as restaurants, pubs, cafes or nightclubs.


    Care to try again?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    While we are on the subject of England and wales...and comparing to here




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,161 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    +1 The lack of choice here is a bugbear for me. With the boosters it's mRNA Moderna/Pfizer or nothing. If the initial vaccine rollout hadn't offered the options of J&J and AZ the chances are high I wouldn't have taken one. I won't be pushed into taking a booster of one now.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Your issue is with MRNA vaccines ?

    Thats gas,I refused AstraZeneca and would have refused j&j



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,161 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Good for you. You had the choice, that was my point. If the only option for the booster was J&J, would you be so gung ho for it now?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,712 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Wibbs has the burden of knowledge and desire for control while also remaining rational, won't say it out straight, but I understand where he's coming from :)

    Wonder if Sinovac/pharm doing a booster? Novavax might also fill that desire, diversity in vaccine choice is good and if it weren't for the rare clotting issues that stop it being used in young people, AZ/J&J would still be an option.

    Any sign they'll start being offered privately?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yes Actually I'd take any of the vaccines now having had a conversation with my Gp



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,418 ✭✭✭✭Supercell


    Any news when the over 50's are going to get their appointments?, the article below implies they could be done by December 11th yet I haven't heard of anyone in that group being given an appointment yet that wasn't a healthcare worker or someone with a qualifying medical condition.


    Have a weather station?, why not join the Ireland Weather Network - http://irelandweather.eu/



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They could all be done in theory by that date if the mac's and pharmacies ramp back up to 270,000 a week

    Thats the question



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Btw,I'm aware of an immunocompromised person who got their booster at their GP last week just 2 months after their 2nd,he's 15



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    They are a week and a bit into the over 60s and HCWs so that timetable is preposterous. Martin said over 50s from January. DeGascun from a few days ago. on it.





  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,161 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Ahh yes, GP's the expert virologists that they are. GP's are overworked and up to their oxters in patients, particularly in Ireland. They for the most part will quite naturally go along with the top down advice de jour. Who were overperscribing antibiotics for decades? Yep, GP's. In the US it was GP's who overperscribed "safe" opiods and caused mayhem by doing so. It would be my opinion they're overperscribing antidepressants too, but we'll see how that pans out down the years. I have a lot of respect for GP's, most work like trojans and if I see one they're in the driving seat as far as my health goes, but I'm in the passenger seat and if I have a map I'll read it and adjust accordingly.

    In the case of cobid vaccines I read studies(actual studies, not dailyfail headlines or bored suburban bints on whatsapp into crystals, candles and "natural health") and decided on the back of those to avoid mRNA vaccines for the moment. It's very much a new technology, one which started out as holding great promise as a therapy for many conditions, but one that fell on its arse in short order because they had to stop at animal trials for the vast majority of promised therapies because the side effects were far too dangerous to take it to human studies. Chastened, the companies(Moderna/Pfizer/AZ) turned to vaccines as a possible avenue because the doses would be smaller and require fewer injections, even though vaccine and vaccine research is the poor cousin in the industry. Then covid hit. Now we're into boosters. If they're going to be bi annual jabs, the dose levels go up. Sod that.

    And before anyone goes on about millions of doses being given, by definition we can't claim long term effects from the data of less than 18 months. I looked at AZ and J&J and decided upon J&J. Plus J&J demonstrated the lowest number of side effects post vaccination(I noted that in friends and family too). I had that choice. Now I don't. I would like it back and I would have no issue with paying for it either. Indeed the J&J is the cheapest of the vaccines we had on offer here and doubly so as it required one less jab.

    The main problem with viralvector vaccines is the body's own immune system can become immune to the viralvector itself with repeated doses and efficacy would be reduced. Though using a different viralvector would get around that. IE if you had J&J, a jab of AZ(or vice versa) would do the trick.

    Personally I'm waiting for the vaccines with better and longer lasting immunity that are currently in the pipeline. One line of research showed that those who recovered from SARS and then got a covid vaccine on top because of the current pox look to have strong long lasting immunity and not just to covid and its variants, but it looks like they will have immunity to most of the other coronaviruses in that family, even ones that haven't found their way to an Asian wet market or chicken coop and jumped to humans. Indeed when this current pox hit researchers weren't too sure if SARS survivors retained any immunity to that pox as antibodies dropped off within the year for most, but it seems they did.

    As I said earlier I recovered from covid and then got the J&J seven months later, so that was actually my booster. I will take another if required, but it will be one of my choice.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,085 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Hitting the booze early today Wibbs?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Oh for heavens sake Wibbs,thats melodrama not health advice you've given me there

    If you believe you're safe then you make your own choices and don't get your booster because you only want j&j



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    I'll be getting the booster but most of the people in my circle of friends aren't going to bother which I can understand. Each to their own..



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