The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 3) Mod Notes and Threadbanned List in OP

I do understand why those of a nationalist perspective are struggling with the emergence of the third identity. It is a fatal blow to the long-term aspirations for a united Ireland. Nonetheless, it is a growing view and nationalism needs to learn to engage with it firstly to understand and secondly, to incorporate it into the future political arrangements.

Sinn Fein, as the party which cries loudest on the UI question needs to step up.

Why would you assume that a GAA going individual (and I am more involved than that) is somewhat Nationalist?

Like many people I grew up in a nationalist tradition, but from the GAA excluding members of the RUC to CCE and their exclusionary music practices (try playing a guitar down in Monkstown back in the 1980s), that begrudging aspect of Irish nationalism and culture has always been anathema.

I would consider myself a post-nationalist, where local and international identity are as important as national identity and that identity doesn't need territory to express itself. So while proudly Irish, I am also proudly a Dub and a European and I am not beholden to any territorial expression of those identities.

As for the struggle with the third identity, you can see from these boards and threads, that there is a denial in place. Only a few posts ago we had someone saying that they didn't believe much of it was genuine.

What "us and them" mindset? Surely, in thinking about the third identity, I have moved well beyond the limited thinking of "us and them" that you nationalists cling to. The North is evolving well beyond the duality of thinking that has blighted it for decades. Nationalism doesn't have to learn, it can continue as a permanent diminishing minority if it wants, I don't care. We may well see the ultimate pyrrhic victory after the next Assembly elections if Sinn Fein become the largest political party while also seeing the nationalist vote in the North continue to fall against the rise of the middle ground.

If you want to categorise me neatly into a box, you can put me in the "them and them" box, where I have an equal distaste for the sectarians on both sides (DUP and SF) with SF only figuring more prominently as they are the ones looking for my vote. Thankfully the other lot are stuck up North.

You are wrong, you are suffering from the nationalist misconception that if you are not with us, you are against us.

I have full respect for the Irish nationality, I have said that already (I have no time for Sinn Fein, but as you say yourself, that is not the same thing). As a postnationalist, I don't see the need to associate a nationality with a territory. That puts me in a far different place than the nationalists around here who cling to old and outdated notions of exclusionary nationalism based on a territory. Why else do we see suggestions of a grant scheme to ship unionists back to England? It is 15th century thinking.

For those who are Northern Irish, somewhat uncomfortable in the UK, but not wanting to be part of a unitary Irish state, what options do you offer? Increased autonomy within the UK might be on the table, independence might be too. However, there is nothing on offer from nationalists to that group. As you said in an earlier post, "why would people, including SF, seeking a UI need to change their aspiration because others might not share it?". The answer is that if they want to avoid becoming another small diminishing minority they should expand their thinking beyond the narrow confines of a unitary Irish state. It is a difficult thing to do, but someone needs to get thinking on it and move away from the old tropes and slogans.

Partition is democratic. It was accepted in the GFA, it was accepted in the 1970s referendum. Both of those democratic mandates for partition are far later than anything from 100 years ago.

I don't have a black and white view of nationalism.

For example, I don't see Irish nationalism as requiring support for a united Ireland. You can be an Irish nationalist and favour the continuation of partition. Don't you agree? If you don't agree, maybe you are the one with the black and white view.

I have a view of nationalism that allows someone to be both British and Irish, neither British nor Irish, British, half-British, half-Irish, some other combination. People can identify as whatever nationality they want, I am not stopping them, I don't have a black and white view of that and our political arrangements need to mature to allow all that.

I don't think this discussion is about me, but would I like to see a united Ireland? Yes, under certain conditions. Does that make me an Irish nationalist? Yes. Does that define everything about me? No.

As I said already, I am proud to be from Dublin, from Ireland and from Europe.

Do I meet your narrow exclusionary definition of Irish nationalist? Probably not, but I don't think that's my problem.

Let's be clear.

A nationalist does not have to be a supporter of Sinn Fein.

Sinn Fein have a narrow exclusionary definition of Irish nationalism.

Those who align themselves with Sinn Fein on the issue are exclusionary nationalists.

That doesn't mean all Irish nationalists are exclusionary nationalists.

Nationalism is a problem when it is of the Farage, Trump, Le Pen or Sinn Fein exclusionary type. That is not just an Irish problem.

It is ok for people to aspire to a united Ireland so long as they follow the Irish constitution in wanting to unite the people of the island first.

If people want to reject the aspiration of uniting the people of the island before a united Ireland, then they are anti-democratic.

It is not ok for people to follow the Sinn Fein line and call for a border poll now while at the same time supporting the GFA.

It is ok for people to follow the Sinn Fein line and call for a border poll now while acknowledging that they are implicitly rejecting the GFA.

There is an awful lot that is good about being Irish - music, art, literature, humour - but there is some that is bad, as with all cultures.

I have explained my opinions as above many many times, and backed them up with relevant sources. It is difficult to accept that those who follow the threads regularly are misunderstanding me. You can feel free to disagree with my opinions but my opinions are not wrong, neither are they based on false premises.

No opinion is right or wrong, it just needs to be based on sound logic and argued reason. If it is not, such an opinion is misguided, laughable or stupid.

The deepest irony on this thread is you parroting your usual about not speaking on behalf of others and letting them make up their own minds......while speaking on behalf of all Northern Irish people.

Parroting on about exclusionary ideals.....while excluding a significant cohort because they don't conform to what you're trying to push.

Let me be clear. I'm Northern Irish.....I'm an Ulster man....I don't and won't vote SF.....I aspire towards Irish unification. Should Unification occur, I'll still be Irish, European, Northern Irish and an Ulster man (in no particular order). I'm far from alone in this.

I, along with many (indeed MOST Northern Irish people) have no interest in NI independence...despite your blatant lies about APNI, no notable party in NI supports NI independence......NI independence is NOT a middle ground solution and this is known by anyone with even a modicum of actual knowledge of the place (it is a fringe desire expressed only by a particularly hardline sect of Loyalism).

Maybe you could do with listening to a few people you claim to speak on behalf of instead of just talking over them?

Congratulations where it is due. I see from the Northern Ireland vaccination statistics that 100% of over-60s have now been vaccinated.

A fantastic achievement, no doubt.

How does that contradict my point that Labour and others don't want to go into government with Sinn Fein?

Surely it increases the reasons why Labour won't want anything to do with them.

Without a smiley it is impossible to see the humour. You would be surprised at how much fun I am.