Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

clsmooth · 25-11-2021 12:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218630#Comment_118218630

Defensive lineout, consistency, work rate and engine. He was the top for lineout steals in last years 6N despite only playing 50% of the available minutes. He very rarely has a poor game. Watch the recent NZ game to see some of the clear outs he made whilst stealing 2 line outs. Huge work rate. How often do you see him get subbed? He usually tends to go the whole 80 (recent HIAs aside).

2020-21 wasn’t a great season for him for injury reasons and understandably it affected his form, but he was one of the few players who came out of 2019 with any credit and he started this season very well. Henderson and Beirne are quality players who tend to have big moments POM style but I’d still prefer Ryan +1 in a pack with the other giving impact from the bench.

molloyjh · 25-11-2021 12:59am

Ryan is also a TH lock. Something Beirne categorically isn’t. So Ryan simply isn’t competing with Beirne at all. Henderson can play the TH role so he may compete with him but I don’t think Henderson brings as much bulk and power as Ryan.

And of course let’s not forget that Ryan has been made captain in Sextons absence in the last 2 series. Has Beirne ever captained a side he’s played for?

TRC10 · 25-11-2021 1:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218954#Comment_118218954

Henderson is a good bit bulkier than Ryan. He's an inch or so shorter but also heavier.

James Ryan isn't particularly bulky for a 6'8 TH lock.

Especially compared to other TH locks like Hill, Etzebeth, Willemse and Skelton. They're all considerably bigger.

ersatz · 25-11-2021 2:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218030#Comment_118218030

Yeah, he also has that POM quality that when he comes on as a late replacement he delivers big plays nearly every time. That sort of bench impact is golden from the coaches perspective.

aloooof · 25-11-2021 4:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218880#Comment_118218880

With regards consistency / Beirne only having big moments, I think this is way off tbh. For all of last season, Beirne along with Henshaw was our best player. He’s continued that run of form this season.

Ryan, on the other hand, has been much improved this season vs last. If anything, whether down to injury or otherwise, he’s the one who’s recently struggled for consistency.

clsmooth · 25-11-2021 9:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118219094#Comment_118219094

In fairness I said Beirne is an excellent player who tends to have big moments as opposed to only having big moments. That’s not to imply that he does nothing bar a big turnover!

Same with Henderson who is particularly good for a big carry, ripping a ball in contact or winning a choke tackle turnover. I’m not sure Ryan has as many of those big turnover moments in him but he’s got an excellent work rate hitting rucks and tackling around the fringes and generally winning those collisions.

Consistency has arguably been more an issue for Henderson over his career. Ryan’s form wasn’t great last year which I suspect injury played a role in it. Between being rushed back for the Sarries game after dislocating his shoulder and then a few niggly injuries and HIAs he’s had a tough time of it. Maybe the captaincy was a bit of a burden on him too at times whilst he was trying to get back into form.

Either way, like the centre debate, it’s a nice problem to have. All excellent players who bring different things to the team and whichever 2 we choose, it should be a strong unit.

UAEguy2020 · 25-11-2021 9:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218630#Comment_118218630

Are you just trying to be a self proclaimed realist here?

bashing you’re own countries players and team doesn’t make you a realist if that’s what you are wondering.

UAEguy2020 · 25-11-2021 9:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118219020#Comment_118219020

Except , with the exception of Eztebeth, they are mostly fat f*cks and/or offer little to nothing other beef in the scrum.

phily2002 · 25-11-2021 10:12am

I think Ryan and Beirne are different players. Ryan plays the traditional 2nd row role and offers huge work rate with high number of tackles(he's one of our most dominant tacklers as well), tight carries and smashes rucks. Beirne is more a hybrid 2nd row/back row and plays more like a back row in the loose with a poacher role so doesn't make as many tackles and is better wider out at picking lines.

I think Ryan has been first choice for us lately as along with the above he's also taken his line out ability to another level. He's our best defensive jumper(POM also up there).

I think Beirne is quality and thought he might have been looked at at 6 but Dorris has really taken his opportunity there and currently it's his Jersey to lose.

Good problem to have with 3 quality 2nd rows.

Lsdrugbyfan · 25-11-2021 10:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218630#Comment_118218630

Paul O'Connell who would know a thing or two about playing 2nd row seems to think he should be first choice for Ireland.

25-11-2021 10:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218880#Comment_118218880

Agree with all this, you can also add leadership into the mix as he's next in line to Sexton now.

Blue4u · 25-11-2021 10:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218030#Comment_118218030

In reality they should pick the team based on the opposition. Based on who they are playing pick the best back row they think.

I think we should get away from "nailed on" people and instead have a squad which is capable of playing depending on who the opposition is

aloooof · 25-11-2021 10:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118219331#Comment_118219331

That’s all pretty fair, was just making the point that I think consistency over the last 12+ months is much more an argument for Beirne’s inclusion rather than Ryan’s.

Ryan did get the most line out steals in the 6N (at 3) with limited minutes but Beirne is no slouch in that regard either, getting 2. Beirne’s turnover stats were phenomenal tho. He got 10, fair away ahead of 2nd placed Henderson on 6.

theVersatile · 25-11-2021 12:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118219404#Comment_118219404

If you think Skelton is only a fat f**k who provides beef in the scrum, I don't know what to tell you

OldRio · 25-11-2021 12:22pm

This is some rather good news

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1463827666277183496?s=20

theVersatile · 25-11-2021 12:22pm

Speaking of nailed on...

Furlong signs until 2025

OneLungDavy · 25-11-2021 12:22pm

It's such a stupid argument comparing anyone to Skelton. He's a complete freak of a man, you would do well to find another athlete like him in the history of the game.

aloooof · 25-11-2021 12:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118219476#Comment_118219476

POC will obviously have a big say in the 2nd row selection, but I'm not sure we can go as far as saying the 2nd row is entirely down to him tho.

bilston · 25-11-2021 12:59pm

Big news about Furlong, although its a shame he didn't join some of his former Leinster compatriots and sign for Ulster.

Great news for Ireland though.

pickarooney · 25-11-2021 2:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217547#Comment_118217547

Yes, because I think Ryan will be out for a considerable time.

TomsOnTheRoof · 25-11-2021 2:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217547#Comment_118217547

I agree. He won seven lineouts the weekend, stole one, made the third highest number of tackles behind POM and Doris and won two turnovers. Throw in the try, his offload, second highest passer in the pack and his carrying in the tight and you have an excellent all round performance. I'd have him as our first lock. He was our best player last year and has continued that kind of form.

Edit: And that's without mentioning his work at the breakdown when we're in possession.

molloyjh · 25-11-2021 2:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220642#Comment_118220642

Ryan left the field before half time yet made 14m in his 5 carries in his time on the pitch. Beirne made 20m from 13 carries over the 80. Comparing Ryan’s last 80 min performance vs NZ to Beirnes vs Argentina:

Ryan made 10 from 10 tackles. Beirne made 10 from 12 tackles.

Ryan won 3 turnovers and conceded 3. Beirne made 2 turnovers and conceded 1.

Ryan made 21m from 11 carries. Beirne made 20m from 13 carries.

Beirnes big point of difference is his passing. He def gets on the ball and plays it away more than Ryan. But other than that their stats are very similar.

And that brings me back to my original point. We have 3 high quality locks. Any combination of the 3 is going to be high quality. Stats wise Henderson was the weaker performer of the 3, but (a) he hadn’t much game time, (b) stats aren’t the be all and end all and (c) there’s a bunch of stuff we don’t see and can’t measure from the likes of power in the scrum to leadership etc.

I’m not sure why people need to pin colours to the mast like this. We should be really happy that we have these guys all available to us and hope all 3 remain fit. It does look like the coaches rate Henderson-Ryan as their first choice, but we may see a horses for courses type approach in the 6Ns. Either way we all get to reap the reward of having 3 high quality locks to pick from, and isn’t that a great thing.

Lsdrugbyfan · 25-11-2021 2:30pm

a certain section of irish fans have decided the future irish captain isn't any good, thats clear, I wonder why..

phog · 25-11-2021 2:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220766#Comment_118220766

Pot kettle...

bilston · 25-11-2021 3:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220766#Comment_118220766

Ah come on now...that works both ways

aloooof · 25-11-2021 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220766#Comment_118220766

Oh ffs... The poster who started this conversation off (TRC) is a Leinster fan. Absolutely nobody has been saying Ryan isn't any good. Also, the irony....

Paul Smeenus · 25-11-2021 3:06pm

Leinster fan TRC10 thinks Beirne should be nailed on, that James Ryan, while "very good", is not world class.

LSD: "Scumbags from other provinces are always saying James Ryan isn't any good!"

aloooof · 25-11-2021 3:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220752#Comment_118220752

I think whatever way you slice it, they're very different players. Beirne has better footwork, passing and turnover threat. Ryan has better hard carrying, workrate, (I assume) stronger at scrum time and intangibles like leadership.

You want Ryan hitting rucks and making tackles. You don't necessarily want Beirne doing that, given his prowess over the ball.

We get a lot of what Beirne is good at from our new back-row. If we had, say, Stander and Ruddock at 8 and 6, I think it's entirely possible Beirne might have gotten the nod over Ryan in the last few matches.

But we're extremely lucky to have 3 high calibre options.

Lord Gaga · 25-11-2021 3:15pm

I wonder if Stander hadn’t retired would he make it into the Eire team given current quality and depth in the backrow?

aloooof · 25-11-2021 3:18pm

Join date: Nov 2021. Posts: 1. "Eire"

Great, this'll be fun....

pickarooney · 25-11-2021 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218954#Comment_118218954

Henderson scrummed down behind Furlong against New Zealand while Ryan was on the LH side so I think that's not really the case. I thought it a bit strange as Henderson is more of a flexible 3rd-row option than Ryan. Maybe Porter needed an extra shove?

El_Duderino 09 · 25-11-2021 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221151#Comment_118221151

He would never have been dropped. His aura of invincibility was never understood by me. He was good, but his flaws made him only good. Coombs is already an upgrade.

But he'd still be in the backrow and the gameplay might have to be less ambitious to accommodate him.

Clegg · 25-11-2021 5:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221183#Comment_118221183

Reminds me of a recently banned (I think) poster from the AI match day threads.

aloooof · 25-11-2021 5:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221929#Comment_118221929

Genuinely thought he had just scurried off after the results didn't go his way. This attempt has gone the same way, it seems.

Dubinusa · 25-11-2021 5:27pm

Furlong signs! There is a God! Great news.

I think the recent series has shown the a little time afforded to the coaching team, has shown its rewards. I was certainly wanting Catt out. But, now I am delighted that we have him. Regardless of how the 6nations go, I think the evolution of our play will continue.

Regarding the locks, the choices are great. Beirne imo, is the better athlete, capable of turning a game. Ryan is steady and a workhorse. Fantastic line out operator and even when he doesn't turn over an opponents throw, he does make it harder for them to claim clean ball. Henderson is also capable of big moments! But he is so strong. He seems to have the strength of 2 men. Henderson is also important in the scrum. All 3 are great options! My concern is injury! Ryan had a mare last year. Henderson has had injuries in the past. Beirne also had injury problems. After these 3, there's a drop off to the next locks!

ionadnapokot · 25-11-2021 6:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118222032#Comment_118222032

I'd say its the most important re-signing....ever! And all without the ROG to the Miami Dolphins. BOD to Biarritz and SOB to Toulon rigmarole.

Btw the other Tadghs contract is up in 2022. If Beirne was to leave i think it would be far more damaging to Ireland than Henderson (2023) leaving.

It appears that Farrell may prefer Henderson if Ireland are going to play it tighter. But Beirne has been the exceptional lock over the last year. He had a great game against France in 2020 6N and against Wales this year when was top carrier, tackler, passer and jackler.

Game against Arg was another example of the impact and versatility he offers. Came in last min to start and he called all the lineouts (100% return), switched over to 5 when Ryan went off, played the 80mins and scored a try.

Sign him up!

Former Former Former · 25-11-2021 9:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118222276#Comment_118222276

It appears that Farrell may prefer Henderson if Ireland are going to play it tighter

What did you see in the last three weeks that suggests Ireland are trying to play it tight?

I think he just prefers Henderson.

ionadnapokot · 25-11-2021 10:05pm

Set piece e.g. a lineout and maul which led to all of Ireland’s tries v nz

That is what I saw to suggest “tight” and v Arg which Henderson was to start where did Ireland score their first few tries from?

Tommysocks11 · 26-11-2021 10:23am

Yes IMHO I think cj really stiffled irelands game and ended a lot of their attacking opportunities with his looking for contact mentality and lack of a passing game, great guy and strong as an ox but I feel current back rowers are all better players

OneLungDavy · 26-11-2021 10:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220766#Comment_118220766

I can safely say POM gets more of this vitriol than anyone on here, even worse is Leinsterfans.com. I often see him referred to as half a player because they conclude he doesn't offer anything, utter nonsense.

CMcsporty · 26-11-2021 1:51pm

Surely Connor Murray wins that prize.

O 'Mahony proved yet again what a vital cog in the machine he is. I would think most reasonably minded people can also see that Dorris, Conan and VDF are the best combination.

Must love hardship · 26-11-2021 2:32pm

Id agree that currently dorris Conan and vdf are best combination.

I also said before the November Internationals that Pom is a great squad and bench option due to his versatility.

What happened last Sunday with 2 players going down in the 24 hours before the game shows how his versatility helped us.

I don't think he is a better option to start than any of the starters or some of the other back ups but can't see him being left out of a squad between now and the WC.

Faugheen · 26-11-2021 5:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118225063#Comment_118225063

POM got a lot of criticism because he would go through so many games as a passenger.

Nobody can deny how good he can be, but there was a time after the New Zealand game in 18 where he was very, very poor and people spoke about how he had to be in the team because of the lineout.

Getting dropped was the best thing to happen to him. Now he's the nailed on 20 for me.

aloooof · 26-11-2021 6:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227816#Comment_118227816

I think an awful lot of it was overblown tho; the Wales game in 2019 often gets a mention but absolutely nobody was good that day, for example.

Over the last 12+ months for Ireland, the red card v Wales is obviously a mark against him, but he's been excellent other than that. One of our best players during the ANC, our best player vs Japan in the Summer and excellent when called upon over the last number of weeks. Even before that, he was good in the 2020 6 Nations pre-Covid, and was our best player in what was an awful display vs NZ in the RWC, for example. (Probably the only player to come out with any credit).

I don't think he's ever been as bad as some people made out.

Faugheen · 26-11-2021 6:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227924#Comment_118227924

New Zealand in the Rugby World Cup?

He wound me up so much in that game. Won a turnover and a lineout but towards the end of the first half when we were attacking the NZ line (one of the very few occasions we got to!), he gave away one of the most stupid penalties I've ever seen (which he subsequently repeated in that aforementioned Wales game in the 6N and got sent off). To say he came out of that game with credit is being very generous.

There were plenty of players who were performing week-in, week-out and POM was picked when he was stinking out the place. He absolutely deserved a lot of criticism for his performances post-NZ 2018 because he was living off that performance and it was a long time before anything like that was replicated. There was one game where he made just one tackle, which for a back-row was pathetic.

Anyway, I don't want to go over old ground too much because, as you've pointed out, he was excellent the last number of weeks and I'm perfectly content with that.

TRC10 · 26-11-2021 6:52pm

I am and always have been a big POM fan. And I think he is playing very well at this moment in time and he does bring a lot in terms of experience and leadership

But I'm of the opinion that if we want to win a World Cup, we're going to need better than a 34-year-old POM. And there are a lot of young backrowers knocking on the door that will need to be brought through in time for the WC.

Kendellan is somebody who I want to see capped in the next 2 years. I think he has genuine world class potential and I would not write off him being our starting no.7 at the RWC.

aloooof · 26-11-2021 6:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118228014#Comment_118228014

Slightly making me point for me; the game where he made one tackle is the Wales game that often gets brought up. And that penalty vs NZ must be one of the most overblown "back-row concedes penalty shocker" type situations I can think of.

But agreed, lets leave it there and not go over old ground any further.

Blue4u · 26-11-2021 7:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118228146#Comment_118228146

From what the media and Farrell is saying POM is part of the leadership group and a huge influence around the squad. Based on those comments it would seem he is not been picked into the squad in the first place on form alone.

He is on a central contract till after the WC if I remember correctly so I don't see him going anywhere in the near future. Similar to Sexton a younger player should push themselves so far forward the decision is made for Farrell

TRC10 · 26-11-2021 7:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118228209#Comment_118228209

I agree to an extent.

But sometimes with young players the national coach has to take the initiative.

Look at Tom Curry. In 2017 he'd played a handful of games for Sale, but he wasn't really on anyones radar. Eddie Jones identified him, got him into England camp, drip fed him in. In 2018 he jettisoned Robshaw and Haskell and by the 2019 RWC Curry was a world class player.

As I said, I'm a big POM fan. But i just don't see us winning a World Cup with a 34 year old POM in the side when there's young players like Coombes (24), Penny (22), Soroka (20) and Kendellan (20) knocking about

ersatz · 26-11-2021 11:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118228245#Comment_118228245

I doubt POM will be starting many big games, frankly. He is tearing up trees as a sub and is still given the captaincy as needed so he is clearly valued as a leader in the squad but the competition in the rows is such that coach can be very selective. There's no reason to jettison him while he is putting performances like he has recently and let's remember that a lot of new new players are really young so that mentorship old hand role is vital.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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