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The Irish protocol.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    This is why Unionism is in a death spiral - despite being an ever-decreasing minority it's always looking to dominate, its never ending desire to 'do them'uns over' and engineer some sort of win should it be imagined or otherwise.

    If you had a normal ideology in Unionism it would have sought a cross-community consensus on Brexit before taking a position. If you had a careful unionism it would have considered the pitfalls and advised against Brexit.

    If you had a normal Unionist Party in Westminster it would have pushed for the number of alternatives that might have ameliorated the effects of Brexit in Ireland. But no, every single opportunity to poke us in the eye and divide us along your precious border was spitefully grasped at.

    Unionism deserves nothing but the permanent ending of its rotten influence in our country.

    Post edited by Junkyard Tom on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,721 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Yeh...Boris's bluster doesn't add up. How long has he and others been blustering downcow? Nearly as long as you have been told the Protocol is not going anywhere.

    The Dublin government has rarely put a foot wrong, you should listen to them when they say what Boris is blustering for, it is for

     “UK media and public consumption”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    There is no spin. I (+ I doubt anyone else commenting here) knew/knows exactly how far the EU is willing to go to appease the UK. I mean there will be a limit somewhere. I am not an expert and have not read full details of their offer of changes, but my understanding of core of it is EU is prepared to waive some customs controls that would have been expected to begin for goods entering NI from GB. That is the compromise. GB/NI is meant to be an external border of the EU single market for goods with oddity of UK managing it and reporting on it to the EU. I don't think it was originally expected that these Customs checks etc. would be very much different from other EU goods "borders", just that they would be phased in over time in the ports by the UK.

    At the moment UK negotiating position is IMO seeking to scrap NI protocol by watering it down to nothing, or if they don't get the EU to agree to this, they say they will use a technical "loophole" (what EU would see as abuse/misuse of Article 16) to get rid of it that way and look for whole agreement to be re-negotiated from scratch. I don't think any of this will fly and if the UK try it, there won't be a renegotiation and some kind of trade dispute + another period of acrimony will kick off instead. I don't believe public UK position has changed at all since the summer, so it is for them to make some new proposals at this point or dare I say it show some signs that they actually want to work with the EU on this. They have never done that IMO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,229 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Unionism is in a death spiral, that is true, but that death spiral is mirrored on the other side with support for a united Ireland continuing to fall in Northern Ireland. The emergence of a third minority is the real threat to both of them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,640 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Oh, this is an easy one.

    The Protocol is part of the Withdrawal Agreement, an international treaty made by the UK and the EU. If you want to either remove or amend the Protocol, that will require an amending treaty. For example, if you wanted to eliminate any role for the ECJ under the Protocol, you'd need an amending treaty to do that.

    So, if the outcome of the discussions between the UK and the EU is the negotiation, signature and ratification of an amending treaty to delete or amend the NI Protocol as currently in force, then downcow will have been right and everyone else wrong. But if the outcome is confined to agreement on measures at the Joint Committee, for which the Protocol provides, with the Protocol as already negotiated, signed and ratified remaining in effect without amendment, then downcow will have been wrong and everyone else right.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    you say Uk position has not changed since summer. Has the Eu position changed since summer? In your view



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    agreed but the emergence of a third minority will not be a threat to unionism, in that it will not be a threat to the union. It will be a threat to unionist and nationalist bigotry only. It will be not just a threat to republicanism but the end of Ui aspirations for generations



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I think there is confusion because many of you are seeing the position being presented by unionism for negotiating as their intended outcome. If you went to by a car would you start by offering what you would like to pay?

    here is what I believe to be the private position of most unionists. Now was john Kyle correct to go public at this stage? Doesn’t really matter as he represents such a small number of people. I think there is a danger uup will go public with something similar at some point and I believe that would be a mistake. They need to hold their nerve and hold the line.

    https://twitter.com/bbctheview/status/1463990943426625542?s=20



  • Registered Users Posts: 537 ✭✭✭Speedline


    Do you imagine you are haggling with other posters here when you say there are elements of the protocol you cannot countenance under any circumstances?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,721 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Yep...pretty much knew that you would fashion a win no matter what happens.

    How many buses is it going to cost or how many young lads burned and injured is this great act of subterfuge (that randomers on the internet are talking about 😁 HOPE the EU don't read Boards hi!) gonna take do you think?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,721 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Everything about downcow and his posting style can be found in that post.

    "taking their lives in their hands everyday to escape the Eu" is such a bastardised version of what is happening and is such vile anti-EU spin. He either invented it or regurgitated it, and I honestly don't know which is worse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,508 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    The only posts of theirs i can see are the quoted ones which are enough unfortunately as they've been on my "ignore" list for some time.


    It's a lone extremist standpoint that they are taking. Their posts were notable in that they highlighted that this extremist minority exists. After a while it became obvious that there's no point wasting pages of electronic ink arguing over and back when valid points get ignored for strawman arguments.


    I suggest others do the same and we might actually get some reasoned posting as opposed to the endless effort to point score. It's too easy to kick points with only one lad standing in the other goal shouting profanities at your team waving wide at every kick while ignoring the landslide that is unfolding.


    Anyway, hopefully we get some credible posters opposed to the protocol to post their opinions. Otherwise this particular thread has run it's course.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Yes. They are trying their best to 1) come to agreement UK can live with + implement and 2) make implementation of it as non-disruptive as possible for NI because that is what a member state (Ireland) seeks.

    A quiet life, NI stable, no more major shocks, NI-IE border free of a looming threat of it being disrupted in future, UK just implements the agreement + takes a breather from provoking endless rows with the EU.

    It's almost certainly going to end in tears I think and my position has always been this NI Protocol has no long term future unfortunately. It is a delicate construction that needs trust and honesty, willingness to cooperate + compromise to operate. What UK practice right now is belligerance and dishonesty + zero-sum games and it can't survive that long term.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Same arrogance francie as Bertie used. Nobody understands the protocol except nationalists and Europeans !



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,721 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Whatever downcow.

    You wanna believe that young fella that set himself on fire 'understands' a complex trade arrangement/agreement, you go right ahead.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Hands up. Apologies for that phraseology. I meant they take their life in their hands to escape their homeland conditions and their object is to get to the Uk even though that involves further risk.

    you must admit that people of the world are not queuing up to get to France or roi. For some reason, and I accept they are complex reasons, Uk, Canada, USA, Australia are some of the sought after destinations. And I am talking generally, not just migrants.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    People of the world certainly are queuing up to get into France and Ireland (some of which are directly from Britain due to Brexit). Many EU countries have higher rates of immigration (per capita) than the UK, many take in a great deal more asylum seekers (per capita) than the UK, despite your earlier ranting. The reasons are multi-faceted (spoken language and family/friends there being a bigger factor I'd guess), despite your odd take that it somehow proves Brexit hasn't impacted the British economy or whatever point you're trying to make about the EU (to which I'll reiterate, step away from The Express and look at the actual number of asylum seekers taken in by the UK versus France or Germany).

    If you can't see that you may be viewing this through a distinctly anglo-centric viewpoint, I suggest you have a little look at what the four countries you picked out have in common, and why they may be more appealing to the people you'd generally communicate with.

    You forgot the pre-Brexit favoured spots in Spain for your pensioners though. Spain takes in more British migrants per capita than the US.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,794 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Do you by any chance happen to know the amount of asylum seekers per country before making these claims.

    The number of applications fell slightly to 29,456 applications in 2020 for teh UK.

    So i expect the numbers from france are a lot smaller based on your statement.

    https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/priorities-2019-2024/promoting-our-european-way-life/statistics-migration-europe_en

    • Germany (102,500)
    • Spain (86,400)
    • France (81,700)
    • Greece (37,900)
    • Italy (21,200)

    I see you changed the whole point there with that last line. These figures are from 2018 when the UK still had free movement but even still Germany takes more migrants.

    Germany received 1,383,580 new migrants into the country in 2018, by far the largest number by any OECD member country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,721 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Might fit you better to ponder why 1/3 of your graduates think that Britian is a better place than NI.


    The pattern of emigration from the North in recent decades has meant a disproportionate number of those with a good education have left, with few coming back. Over the past decade, about 30 per cent of Northern students have gone to Britain for their third-level studies, particularly those from a Protestant background, and only a third of these return to the North after graduation. In recent years, this outflow of educated young people to Britain has accelerated, while the proportion of returned emigrants per head is half that of the Republic.

    Is there any more savage indictment of a failed state? We had the same issues and did something about it, we didn't purposefully make it worse.




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    What has a young lad catching fire in an unrelated accident got to do with the nip. Same old same old. Let’s all spin reality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    You are referring to people moving from one part of the Uk to another. Maybe you should consider what percentage of graduates stay in Donegal Would it be as high as two thirds or do they head for your capital as well



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,721 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    .....correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the young lad set himself on fire while attempting to throw a petrol bomb at the police to somehow protest a multitude of things, including the NI Protocol, CoVid and the Shinner funeral?

    Hardly an accident and certainly not unrelated.

    Almost looked more like a bunch of young folk riled up and spoiling for trouble because they're angry and unable to express it in a healthy manner rather than legitimate protest due to a fundamental disagreement with anything.....which I believe was precisely the point being made in the post you responded to?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,721 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    with one rioter appearing to set himself on fire and rolling on the ground to put the fire out. S


    Loyalists and unionists are angry about post-Brexit trading arrangements which they claim have created barriers between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,794 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Why question it. His logic is that a young lad who caught fire in NI is not related to the thread, migrants dying off the coast of Britain is entirely related to the thread.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    They are. People from developing countries are queueing up to get into the West (any part of it, even terrible places like Ireland and France!).

    This UK/France/migrants thing is something which has been going on for years, decades even. IMO alot of failed "asylum seekers" who are almost impossible for France to deport back to where they come from trying to force their way into UK because they may have better luck there (family, no state id so can live easier via under the table work etc without needing to come to notice of authorities, english language, and post Brexit can't be sent back to France or EU country they came from originally). They were trying to get onto the trucks when UK was in the EU, perhaps that is harder now post Brexit (?) and floating across the channel is more likely to succeed. Unfortunately that is very dangerous and could be fatal esp. this time of year.



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