Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

TomsOnTheRoof · 25-11-2021 2:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217547#Comment_118217547

I agree. He won seven lineouts the weekend, stole one, made the third highest number of tackles behind POM and Doris and won two turnovers. Throw in the try, his offload, second highest passer in the pack and his carrying in the tight and you have an excellent all round performance. I'd have him as our first lock. He was our best player last year and has continued that kind of form.

Edit: And that's without mentioning his work at the breakdown when we're in possession.

molloyjh · 25-11-2021 2:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220642#Comment_118220642

Ryan left the field before half time yet made 14m in his 5 carries in his time on the pitch. Beirne made 20m from 13 carries over the 80. Comparing Ryan’s last 80 min performance vs NZ to Beirnes vs Argentina:

Ryan made 10 from 10 tackles. Beirne made 10 from 12 tackles.

Ryan won 3 turnovers and conceded 3. Beirne made 2 turnovers and conceded 1.

Ryan made 21m from 11 carries. Beirne made 20m from 13 carries.

Beirnes big point of difference is his passing. He def gets on the ball and plays it away more than Ryan. But other than that their stats are very similar.

And that brings me back to my original point. We have 3 high quality locks. Any combination of the 3 is going to be high quality. Stats wise Henderson was the weaker performer of the 3, but (a) he hadn’t much game time, (b) stats aren’t the be all and end all and (c) there’s a bunch of stuff we don’t see and can’t measure from the likes of power in the scrum to leadership etc.

I’m not sure why people need to pin colours to the mast like this. We should be really happy that we have these guys all available to us and hope all 3 remain fit. It does look like the coaches rate Henderson-Ryan as their first choice, but we may see a horses for courses type approach in the 6Ns. Either way we all get to reap the reward of having 3 high quality locks to pick from, and isn’t that a great thing.

Lsdrugbyfan · 25-11-2021 2:30pm

a certain section of irish fans have decided the future irish captain isn't any good, thats clear, I wonder why..

phog · 25-11-2021 2:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220766#Comment_118220766

Pot kettle...

bilston · 25-11-2021 3:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220766#Comment_118220766

Ah come on now...that works both ways

aloooof · 25-11-2021 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220766#Comment_118220766

Oh ffs... The poster who started this conversation off (TRC) is a Leinster fan. Absolutely nobody has been saying Ryan isn't any good. Also, the irony....

Paul Smeenus · 25-11-2021 3:06pm

Leinster fan TRC10 thinks Beirne should be nailed on, that James Ryan, while "very good", is not world class.

LSD: "Scumbags from other provinces are always saying James Ryan isn't any good!"

aloooof · 25-11-2021 3:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220752#Comment_118220752

I think whatever way you slice it, they're very different players. Beirne has better footwork, passing and turnover threat. Ryan has better hard carrying, workrate, (I assume) stronger at scrum time and intangibles like leadership.

You want Ryan hitting rucks and making tackles. You don't necessarily want Beirne doing that, given his prowess over the ball.

We get a lot of what Beirne is good at from our new back-row. If we had, say, Stander and Ruddock at 8 and 6, I think it's entirely possible Beirne might have gotten the nod over Ryan in the last few matches.

But we're extremely lucky to have 3 high calibre options.

Lord Gaga · 25-11-2021 3:15pm

I wonder if Stander hadn’t retired would he make it into the Eire team given current quality and depth in the backrow?

aloooof · 25-11-2021 3:18pm

Join date: Nov 2021. Posts: 1. "Eire"

Great, this'll be fun....

pickarooney · 25-11-2021 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118218954#Comment_118218954

Henderson scrummed down behind Furlong against New Zealand while Ryan was on the LH side so I think that's not really the case. I thought it a bit strange as Henderson is more of a flexible 3rd-row option than Ryan. Maybe Porter needed an extra shove?

El_Duderino 09 · 25-11-2021 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221151#Comment_118221151

He would never have been dropped. His aura of invincibility was never understood by me. He was good, but his flaws made him only good. Coombs is already an upgrade.

But he'd still be in the backrow and the gameplay might have to be less ambitious to accommodate him.

Clegg · 25-11-2021 5:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221183#Comment_118221183

Reminds me of a recently banned (I think) poster from the AI match day threads.

aloooof · 25-11-2021 5:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221929#Comment_118221929

Genuinely thought he had just scurried off after the results didn't go his way. This attempt has gone the same way, it seems.

Dubinusa · 25-11-2021 5:27pm

Furlong signs! There is a God! Great news.

I think the recent series has shown the a little time afforded to the coaching team, has shown its rewards. I was certainly wanting Catt out. But, now I am delighted that we have him. Regardless of how the 6nations go, I think the evolution of our play will continue.

Regarding the locks, the choices are great. Beirne imo, is the better athlete, capable of turning a game. Ryan is steady and a workhorse. Fantastic line out operator and even when he doesn't turn over an opponents throw, he does make it harder for them to claim clean ball. Henderson is also capable of big moments! But he is so strong. He seems to have the strength of 2 men. Henderson is also important in the scrum. All 3 are great options! My concern is injury! Ryan had a mare last year. Henderson has had injuries in the past. Beirne also had injury problems. After these 3, there's a drop off to the next locks!

ionadnapokot · 25-11-2021 6:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118222032#Comment_118222032

I'd say its the most important re-signing....ever! And all without the ROG to the Miami Dolphins. BOD to Biarritz and SOB to Toulon rigmarole.

Btw the other Tadghs contract is up in 2022. If Beirne was to leave i think it would be far more damaging to Ireland than Henderson (2023) leaving.

It appears that Farrell may prefer Henderson if Ireland are going to play it tighter. But Beirne has been the exceptional lock over the last year. He had a great game against France in 2020 6N and against Wales this year when was top carrier, tackler, passer and jackler.

Game against Arg was another example of the impact and versatility he offers. Came in last min to start and he called all the lineouts (100% return), switched over to 5 when Ryan went off, played the 80mins and scored a try.

Sign him up!

Former Former Former · 25-11-2021 9:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118222276#Comment_118222276

It appears that Farrell may prefer Henderson if Ireland are going to play it tighter

What did you see in the last three weeks that suggests Ireland are trying to play it tight?

I think he just prefers Henderson.

ionadnapokot · 25-11-2021 10:05pm

Set piece e.g. a lineout and maul which led to all of Ireland’s tries v nz

That is what I saw to suggest “tight” and v Arg which Henderson was to start where did Ireland score their first few tries from?

Tommysocks11 · 26-11-2021 10:23am

Yes IMHO I think cj really stiffled irelands game and ended a lot of their attacking opportunities with his looking for contact mentality and lack of a passing game, great guy and strong as an ox but I feel current back rowers are all better players

OneLungDavy · 26-11-2021 10:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118220766#Comment_118220766

I can safely say POM gets more of this vitriol than anyone on here, even worse is Leinsterfans.com. I often see him referred to as half a player because they conclude he doesn't offer anything, utter nonsense.

CMcsporty · 26-11-2021 1:51pm

Surely Connor Murray wins that prize.

O 'Mahony proved yet again what a vital cog in the machine he is. I would think most reasonably minded people can also see that Dorris, Conan and VDF are the best combination.

Must love hardship · 26-11-2021 2:32pm

Id agree that currently dorris Conan and vdf are best combination.

I also said before the November Internationals that Pom is a great squad and bench option due to his versatility.

What happened last Sunday with 2 players going down in the 24 hours before the game shows how his versatility helped us.

I don't think he is a better option to start than any of the starters or some of the other back ups but can't see him being left out of a squad between now and the WC.

Faugheen · 26-11-2021 5:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118225063#Comment_118225063

POM got a lot of criticism because he would go through so many games as a passenger.

Nobody can deny how good he can be, but there was a time after the New Zealand game in 18 where he was very, very poor and people spoke about how he had to be in the team because of the lineout.

Getting dropped was the best thing to happen to him. Now he's the nailed on 20 for me.

aloooof · 26-11-2021 6:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227816#Comment_118227816

I think an awful lot of it was overblown tho; the Wales game in 2019 often gets a mention but absolutely nobody was good that day, for example.

Over the last 12+ months for Ireland, the red card v Wales is obviously a mark against him, but he's been excellent other than that. One of our best players during the ANC, our best player vs Japan in the Summer and excellent when called upon over the last number of weeks. Even before that, he was good in the 2020 6 Nations pre-Covid, and was our best player in what was an awful display vs NZ in the RWC, for example. (Probably the only player to come out with any credit).

I don't think he's ever been as bad as some people made out.

Faugheen · 26-11-2021 6:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118227924#Comment_118227924

New Zealand in the Rugby World Cup?

He wound me up so much in that game. Won a turnover and a lineout but towards the end of the first half when we were attacking the NZ line (one of the very few occasions we got to!), he gave away one of the most stupid penalties I've ever seen (which he subsequently repeated in that aforementioned Wales game in the 6N and got sent off). To say he came out of that game with credit is being very generous.

There were plenty of players who were performing week-in, week-out and POM was picked when he was stinking out the place. He absolutely deserved a lot of criticism for his performances post-NZ 2018 because he was living off that performance and it was a long time before anything like that was replicated. There was one game where he made just one tackle, which for a back-row was pathetic.

Anyway, I don't want to go over old ground too much because, as you've pointed out, he was excellent the last number of weeks and I'm perfectly content with that.

TRC10 · 26-11-2021 6:52pm

I am and always have been a big POM fan. And I think he is playing very well at this moment in time and he does bring a lot in terms of experience and leadership

But I'm of the opinion that if we want to win a World Cup, we're going to need better than a 34-year-old POM. And there are a lot of young backrowers knocking on the door that will need to be brought through in time for the WC.

Kendellan is somebody who I want to see capped in the next 2 years. I think he has genuine world class potential and I would not write off him being our starting no.7 at the RWC.

aloooof · 26-11-2021 6:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118228014#Comment_118228014

Slightly making me point for me; the game where he made one tackle is the Wales game that often gets brought up. And that penalty vs NZ must be one of the most overblown "back-row concedes penalty shocker" type situations I can think of.

But agreed, lets leave it there and not go over old ground any further.

Blue4u · 26-11-2021 7:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118228146#Comment_118228146

From what the media and Farrell is saying POM is part of the leadership group and a huge influence around the squad. Based on those comments it would seem he is not been picked into the squad in the first place on form alone.

He is on a central contract till after the WC if I remember correctly so I don't see him going anywhere in the near future. Similar to Sexton a younger player should push themselves so far forward the decision is made for Farrell

TRC10 · 26-11-2021 7:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118228209#Comment_118228209

I agree to an extent.

But sometimes with young players the national coach has to take the initiative.

Look at Tom Curry. In 2017 he'd played a handful of games for Sale, but he wasn't really on anyones radar. Eddie Jones identified him, got him into England camp, drip fed him in. In 2018 he jettisoned Robshaw and Haskell and by the 2019 RWC Curry was a world class player.

As I said, I'm a big POM fan. But i just don't see us winning a World Cup with a 34 year old POM in the side when there's young players like Coombes (24), Penny (22), Soroka (20) and Kendellan (20) knocking about

ersatz · 26-11-2021 11:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118228245#Comment_118228245

I doubt POM will be starting many big games, frankly. He is tearing up trees as a sub and is still given the captaincy as needed so he is clearly valued as a leader in the squad but the competition in the rows is such that coach can be very selective. There's no reason to jettison him while he is putting performances like he has recently and let's remember that a lot of new new players are really young so that mentorship old hand role is vital.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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