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To the people who say the troubles was not a war

  • 28-11-2021 10:25pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    To the people who are still falling for the British propaganda line the troubles were just as if not more intense than the ''war'' of independence, the IRA were hitting right at the heart of the British establishment killing top politicians and members of the Royal family, it was routine for British politicians to check under their car with a mirror for car bombs everytime they went to drive their car.

    There were at some years of the troubles 30,000 soldiers stationed in Northern Ireland making it the most militarised zone in the planet almost completely confined to the areas of the Catholic minority which makes the claim that soldiers were there to ''keep the peace'' irrelevant.

    Also the British army took nearly twice as many casualties in northern Ireland in the 25 years up to the ceasefire than they lost in 20 years in Afghanistan.

    Not to mention all the bombs that were taking out infrastructure regularly in England also in 1972 the IRA exploded 1800 bombs taking out infrastructure giving 30 minute warnings before the bomb went off, the war in Northern Ireland probably had the biggest impact on Britain by far since WW2.

    Here is a typical day in 1972 northern Ireland I picked this because no one even died on this day.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DkK3Ff4ivkJA&ved=2ahUKEwjtsMeU_7v0AhVRTsAKHZp1BBAQwqsBegQIChAE&usg=AOvVaw0OOWHoQ0IonXdQeehON_d3



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭milehip






  • What you described is terrorism, not war.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    OK



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,479 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Who cares what it was? A horrible piece of history confined to the past which we've moved on from.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭zom


    "Who cares what it was? A horrible piece of history confined to the past which we've moved on from."

    Agree - being in a war is nothing to be proud of either if you win or loose.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,105 ✭✭✭Trigger Happy


    It was terrorism, not warfare and no amount of romanticising that period can erase the horror that happened. At a stretch you could argue that the British army employed urban warfare tactics but you need two sides to be fighting a war and only one was.

    I remember been in Derry during riots on William st. It all went quiet at 6pm. Someone explained to me that they had all gone home for their tea. It would get lively again later in the evening. Some soldiers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Rubbish it was guerilla warfare, it was as much a war as the ''war'' of independence the IRA in the 70s were fighting a more ruthless battle than the IRA in the 20s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,700 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness are no different to Devalera or Collins.

    One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

    They labelled Mandela a terrorist.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There's quite a few people (like the OP) who don't want to move on from it...

    But yes, all this crap should be left behind. There's no value in endlessly bringing it up again, seeking justifications for a truly horrible period in our history.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    Wouldn't the Vietnam "War", the Iraq "War", the Afghan "War", the "War" of Algeria, the American "War" of Independence, the Russo-Afghan "War", etc not also fall into you terrorism definition?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    Who says you need two sides to have a "war". Did you mean two state armies? And what's your definition of "terrorism". Do you think that patriots in the American War of Independence never tortured and murdered locals or those who they suspected of collaboration with the English? And do you think that the English never killed innocents and spread the news that it was done by those with whom they were fighting in order to turn the civilian population against those?

    Were the French and Polish resistance terrorists because they killed spies and informants?

    There's no romanticising. It's a horrible business. But a stronger invading/occupying force may have the upper hand in terms of military equipment and power. Anyone who thinks of war as a gallant campaign between two equal sides is the fool who is romanticising things.

    Dropping more bombs on Vietnam civilians than the entirety of what were dropped in World War 2 or butchering 20% of the Korean population deliberately is terrorism. It serves to terrorise a civilian population.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    And what if you were in Birmingham Alabama or Jackson, Mississippi when the Klan can just lynch people and the cops stand by or hand down a suspended sentence to a gang of beer soaked rednecks who rape a girl or torch a church or lynch some niggra? And the locals riot. Would you call them Sunday lunch soldiers too?



  • Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭Still stihl waters 3


    Terrorism is what the colonist calls the upstarts who dare rebel against their ruling, all invaders think themselves superior to their conquests and while I disagree with many things the IRA did, to call them terrorists is too simple a term used most often by simpletons, there's a core group in Ireland who love to take the moral high ground and see themselves as intellectuals condemning the ignorant Catholic Irish in the North who should have known their place and did what they were told by Whitehall.

    Innocent lives lost during the troubles is the only downside I see to what the IRA and other nationalist groups were trying to achieve which was at first defence of nationalist and Irish people in the North, the only regret I'd have if I was part of it all is that a hell of a lot more of the British army weren't blown to smithereens or lined up and shot like every other invader in every country in the world, send them home in bodybags and let their families mourn, rather them than some innocent child shot in the back on his way to training



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,409 ✭✭✭corner of hells




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,111 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    ...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    No but he certainly thought a lot of Adams he made Adams guard of honour at his funeral.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,409 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    Mandela acknowledged setting up a guerrilla group and committing acts of sabotage, Adams hasn't got the balls to admit being in the IRA because he knows whatever credibility he has got would soon evaporate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,211 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The IRA in the long war was very effective in targeting enemy forces. 70% of those it took out. Mistakes were made, things done that should not have been but in comparison to other conflicts or the IRA campaign in the black and tan war it was exceptional going.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    A terrible time, call it war or not, it doesn’t matter, it’s really beside the point.

    Most definitely the British army were not a popular force among Catholics, no question. They comitted massacres and were rightly despised. The IRA did terrible things also, there can be no doubt about that either.


    The reason I think what the IRA did was not acceptable was that most Catholics did not support it. That’s the truth. They were acting against the wishes of most of the people they claimed to represent. And that was wrong.

    No question the State was rotten, conditions in Catholic areas were poor. Even today the North is a terribly dysfunctional place.

    But the IRA actually made things worse. They hamstrung a strong peaceful movement that was emerging.

    War or terrorism, quite irrelevant, terrible times and the only heroes are mostly unknown people who tried to make the place tolerable.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,687 ✭✭✭Signore Fancy Pants


    Its not a "war" in any traditional sense. This is all just nuanced semantics, however the following acts are apt as definitions.

    IRA members born and living in the 6 counties, using military style tactics against British troops/police would be classed as an insurgency.

    IRA members born and living in the 26 counties, using military style tactics against British troops/police would be classed as guerilla warfare or an armed incursion.

    IRA members from any location conducting indiscriminate attacks (IEDs, bombs etc) where civilians or non combatants are targets (or collateral), is classed as terrorism.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It was only a war to people who support terrorism.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Blowing up kids in a pub is not ruthless battle, they are a stain on our history, nothing to be proud of.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    ''They hamstrung a peaceful movement that was emerging''

    A movement that was regularly getting the **** kicked out of them by the army on their marches eventually culminating in 26 people being shot, two mowed down with army vehicles and hundreds violently assaulted on a civil rights march on bloody Sunday, people had gotten tired of prancing around the streets preaching non violence when violence was being regularly used against them.

    ''Most Catholics did not support it'' that's hard to know for sure as Sinn Féin didn't contest elections until the early 80s where support would have been substantially lower than it was in the early 70s, in the first general election Sinn Féin contested they got 105,000 votes and the SDLP got 130,000, they didn't have the majority support then but there was certainly plenty of wiggle room to get it.

    Sinn Féin in 1918 would have had absolutely no chance of getting 47% of the vote if it wasn't for the violent action taken in 1916 which the vast majority of people didn't support.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ahh well, I don't understand why you linked my quote to that posters... I quoted an entirely different poster in expressing my opinion.. so, linking the two quotes makes no sense (since those other posters said entirely different things). You do realise that other quote was added long after mine, and didn't reference me at all?

    It's utterly bizarre that you would quote me and that other poster, and then, state what you did. Weird.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,912 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    I think it is more Republican propaganda you have fallen for rather than others falling for British propaganda.

    The provo IRA did not recognise either state on the island of Ireland. NI or the ROI. Gardai - RUC - and civilians were targeted. The provisional IRA had no mandate. They had no support in the ROI and their main support was a diehard cohort from NI - who viewed it as fighting an occupation. But the provisional IRA was not an 'army' representing a state with a mandate behind it. Nor had it international public opinion recognising it as such. There were many in the provisional IRA who were opportunists who were bank robbers, drug dealers and did not recognise the rule of law in either the ROI and NI.

    The keepers of the provisional IRA's flame is now the New IRA who in their minds the troubles never ended. Similar to RAAD, the Continuity IRA etc. There have been so many incarnations of these different IRA's. I expect the next ones to be 'I can't believe it's not the IRA', or 'The new and improved IRA'.

    A war is one that exists between nations with mandates from the people to engage in the conflict. The troubles was not a 'war' by any proper definition. As it did not have popular support only among a minority. And worse still it never gained any great support either.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Like the old IRA killing a pregnant woman because she was the wife of a District inspector Cecil Blake in Gort, Co Galway.

    Or the over 100 people ''disappeared'' by the old IRA many of whom innocent protestants.

    Let me ask you do you support these animals?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    The difference between the two is that in general during the War of Independence the Republicans tended to target British representation and the people who worked for them. Army, RIC barracks, court-houses, informers (the Cairo Gang, for example), customs building, Income Tax offices. Things directly related to the 'occupation', if that's what you want to call it.

    During the Troubles, the Republicans seemed to be quite happy targeting supermarkets and shopping streets if they felt that the more 'legitimate' targets were too much trouble that day. I remain to be convinced that the 22 bombs planted by the PIRA on 21 July 1972 alone had anything like a valid target for a guerilla war, if one looks at the list. Brookvale Hotel. Ulster Bank. Botanic Ave Railway Station. Queen Elizabeth Bridge. A housing estate. A bar. A garage. York St Railway station. A schoolbus. The M2 Bridge at Bellvue. A railway footbridge. Ulsterbus Depot. Shops on Cavehill road. Railway line near Lisburn road. Stewarts town Road. Northern Ireland Carriers depot, Smithfield bus depot. Albert street. Crumlin Road. A seed merchant. Sydenham flyover. Salisbury Ave.

    PIRA called it an 'act of war'. Quatsch, as the Germans say. Not one target in there even close to being argued for, the only military affected were two soldiers killed who happened to be outside the Ulsterbus depot when that bomb went off. Even that tiny legitimcacy cannot said for the others, catholic and protestant, killed that day.

    That's your difference between a guerilla war and terrorism. Whatever the merits of why the PIRA may have originally come into existance in the late 1960s, they lost their credibility shortly thereafter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Never have I read such rubbish, Gardai were targeted? Can you then explain to me why then only about 7 were killed in 30 years when they were walking around completely untrained and completely unarmed while the heavily armed RUC who never travelled anywhere without protection from the British army had over 300 killed? There were a tiny few occasions where IRA men went against IRA rules and opened fire on Gardai who were in pursuit of them.

    Also the New IRA are not the keepers of the flame of the provos, the keepers of the flame is Sinn Féin the political wing of the IRA which is now the most popular party both north and south of the border.

    The majority of IRA support was not ''a diehard cohort from NI'' in the biggest poll on IRA support in the Republic of Ireland taken during the troubles by the Economic and Social Research Institute in 1979 it showed 21% of people in the Republic of Ireland fully supporting IRA activities.

    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/politics/polls.htm#79

    And far more than 21% would have had sympathy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    The UDA was a legal organisation up until 1992.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    See this is more fanciful uneducated rubbish, the old IRA killed far more civilians percentage wise than the provos did and maybe more civilians altogether (it's hard to be exact on the numbers).

    The old IRA only managed to kill about 240 British soldiers in the whole of Ireland while the provos killed more than that in just 6 counties in the same amount of time 72-74.

    The IRA exploded 1800 bombs in 1972 on economic targets almost all of these had no casualties due to 30 minute warnings but on bloody Friday the IRA made a huge mistake and placed too many bombs and the security forces couldn't completely clear the areas in time.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You list off this stuff like killing and maiming is justifiable and something to be proud of. It isn’t, and it’s sickening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Ridiculous statement, this country celebrates the old IRA who killed hundreds of civilians men, women and children a far higher percentage of people killed by the old IRA were civilian deaths compared to the PIRA.

    Then you have uneducated people like you who make ridiculous statements like this due to lack of knowledge and romantic views of the past simply because civilian deaths by the old IRA are not shoved down our throats in the media every couple of days in an attempt to hurt Sinn Féin.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Are you seriously arguing "Well, a lot of the bombs we planted against civilian targets don't count because we warned them?" or "It's OK that we killed more civilians, because we killed more soldiers?"

    The practical difference between guerilla warfare and terrorism is the choice of target. There are no exceptions for 'proportions' or 'warnings.' If you can't understand that, there's little wonder you don't understand why the campaigns had little popular support. And if 21 July 1972 (22 bombs) was a mistake, what was 14 April 1972 (24 bombs). An accident?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,566 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Of course the "troubles" were a war.

    You have conflicting sides in a period of combat. That's what you call a war. There may be very unsavoury aspects to it, but I cannot recall any conflict where such a thing doesn't exist.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What difference if it was a 'war', 'insurrection' or 'terrorist campaign' ...?

    People died. There were wrongs on both sides - the ONLY positive thing to come out of it is that it is now in the past. Leave it there and stop trying to claim the moral high ground. There isn't any.

    Learn the lessons and move on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Shao Kahn


    If the British leadership had treated the troubles as an actual "war" in the true sense, they could have easily just carpet bombed our entire island into oblivion within a few weeks. They could have easily wiped out our entire population at various points throughout history.

    As much as we might complain about the Brits, and with justification in some respects, there were actually far worse empires that could have conquered our country in world history. Brutal ruthless dictatorships, that showed zero humanity towards anyone who got in their way.

    We benefited from the fact that the Brits did like to see themselves as being somewhat civilized in how they conducted themselves. You could argue just how civilized some of their leaders and soldiers were in many instances, of course, as they did commit some atrocities without question.

    But there have been many examples of genocides involving millions of people in different parts of the world. And the Brits could very easily have done the same to our small population if they wanted to.

    "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives, and it puts itself into our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,803 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    This is bizarre, because there was trouble in Northern Ireland the Brits could have bombed the republic? Just how do you think the rest of Europe would have reacted if they bombed a neighbouring country due to troubles in their own country?



  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Shao Kahn


    There is many examples throughout world history.

    Even the fact that they gave us back the 26 counties, they didn't have to do that. They could have crushed any rebellion with overwhelming military force if they wanted to. (as many other nations have in the past)

    Even recently, Russia annexed Crimea without any major power stepping in to stop them. Many nations wagged their finger and condemned Russia, but nobody actually stepped in and stopped them.

    In all likelihood, China could grab Taiwan tomorrow morning, and kill millions of their people in the process. Most likely the rest of the world will just wag their finger at China, and say "naughty boy, that's very bold"... and do very little else about it.

    The Brits could have wiped us out at many points in our history. There's no question about that.

    "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives, and it puts itself into our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Well this is a good laugh, the Brits should also be saying the same thing then about the IRA, the Manchester bomb in 1996 or the docklands bomb could have killed thousands of civilians if warnings were not given or how about the other thousands of bombs that went off that the IRA gave warnings for.

    What kind of childish moronic post is this? It's like saying why don't the Americans just nuke the **** out of Iraq or Afghanistan and how great and civilised they are for having not done so.

    According to your logic we should all be very thankful to the IRA for not wiping out thousands of English civilians just because they could have done.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    So there you have it folks, the war of independence is officially a terrorist campaign.

    How exactly do you mean? The overwhelming majority of IRA targets were security forces (70%) far higher than their predecessor of the old IRA, for guerrilla armies them statistics are as good as good as it gets.

    So you're telling me as soon as a guerrilla army kills or targets a civilian they become terrorists? So basically there an no Guerilla armies ever in history? All terrorists?





  • Sinn Féin the political wing of the IRA which is now the most popular party both north and south of the border.


    are they? since when? Is that why they’re not in government and probably never will be? 😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    According to literally every single poll Sinn Féin are the most popular party both North and South by far, they got the most votes in the last election but the next election they are going to have so many votes there will be no way that they can be kept out of government.

    Have you been living in a cave the last few months? Have you not seen the polls?



  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Shao Kahn


    Just giving you a dose of reality.

    Britain didn't have to give back any of our country. Nobody internationally would have stepped in to force their hand in that regard. And IRA bombing campaigns would not have stopped them, if they were determined enough to keep the 26 counties.

    They chose to give them back, just like they chose NOT to give back the 6 counties.

    If Hong Kong or Taiwan or Ukraine tried something similar, what would happen to them? Tanks would roll through the streets and many people would be killed. Like I said, there are many examples in history of uprisings and rebellions being crushed much more ruthlessly than anything the Brits did on our island.

    You think bloody sunday was bad? Look at what other nations and armies did in other parts of the world. Mass genocide of millions of people.

    You have far too high an opinion of the IRA or their capabilities to wage any sort of war against a large nation. If they were killing 1,000's of civilians on mainland Britain, that would be a green light for the Brits to invade the whole island and stamp everything out. They could have done this easily at many points in history.

    Many republicans are very wide-eyed and simple when it comes to their view of history and particularly global history. We are actually very lucky that the Brits mostly tip-toed around us for much of their occupation. Very lucky indeed, as many smaller nations have been flattened ruthlessly by bigger nations throughout history.

    "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives, and it puts itself into our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,362 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    If it was a war the IRA lost.

    Almost 30 years after surrender no UI.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Is anyone actually seeing what I'm seeing here? We should be thankful to the Brits for not commiting genocide against us all these years?

    As I said before childish point of view It's like saying why don't the Americans just nuke the **** out of Iraq or Afghanistan and how great and civilised they are for having not done so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Shao Kahn


    I never said anything about thanking the Brits.

    Obviously it would have been better if we weren't occupied by a foreign power. But yes, there are many examples in history of far worse nations that we could have been occupied by.

    You're making my point by highlighting America in the middle east. Look at what they did to Japanese civilians in WW2. Look at what Britain and America did to Dresden in WW2 - carpet and fire bombing, killing 25,000 civilians.

    What was stopping Britain from doing similar things to us throughout history? Plenty of empires did far worse to small nations.

    The reality is that the Brits never really saw us as their enemy. More like an annoying torn in their side, who wouldn't keep quiet and play ball. And just like America in the middle east, they cared about their public image globally. They didn't want to be seen as some uncivilized savages who just wipe out millions in a genocide.

    This need to be perceived as very civilized and sophisticated, actually spared our population from suffering some of the worst consequences that could have befallen us. Like what the Nazis did to the Jews in WW2, for example. The Brits could very easily have done the same to us. Or like the millions of people that Stalin murdered and used to build the foundations for roads in siberia.

    So in a sense, yes we were actually somewhat fortunate when you look at things in a global historical context.

    "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives, and it puts itself into our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Does the OP consider the lads that murdered all those people watching a rock show in Paris, or the other chaps that blew themselves up in the metro station beneath the building where I work to be invovled in a "war", too?

    Or does murdering civilians only count as a "war" when it is done by people he agrees with?

    TIA



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    So now you've gone to comparing WW2 (the biggest war in the history of the world) when the enemy was literally wanting to take over Britain and put them under occupation, to a small armed group fighting a Guerilla war to get 6 counties of their nation back? Clutching at straws here a bit now aren't we? Obviously more drastic action would be justified in those circumstances.

    At the end of the day all sides of war generally have some sort of ''decency'' if you can call it that, even if the Brits did decide to just carpet bomb Catholic areas into oblivion which realistically wouldn't have worked as at least half of the IRA didn't even live in Northern Ireland and came from across the border to launch attacks and if they decided to carpet bomb the Republic as well which was a member of the EU there would have been massive consequences.

    At the end of the day the IRA acted with some sort of restraint as did the British maybe for moral reasons or more likely because of far reaching consequences for their actions, both sides could have bombed civilians into oblivion but they didn't, that does not mean either side should be ''thankful''

    You seem to also be forgetting consequences to actions, if they did decide to do that what do you think would have happened?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,741 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    The Troubles is just a fancy way of saying a British Civil War. Since technically it's in their country.


    Glad that sh1te is behind us.

    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



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