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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    There won’t be a war, for starters the US is broke and printing dollars like there’s no tomorrow (40% more $US in circulation than 12 months ago)

    Can you see Spanish, Portuguese, Danish troops (or any other NATO member) being sent to Ukraine to die? Of course not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,261 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    If Putin complies and the leaders meet, Biden should make clear that the return of Russian forces to the border would trigger new, hard-hitting sanctions immediately, rather than waiting to see whether they cross into Ukrainian territory. These measures would include expelling Russia from the SWIFT banking system, ending the Nord Stream 2 pipeline project, sanctioning Russia’s primary and (more importantly for Russia’s financial sector) secondary debt markets, and most significantly, sanctioning Putin himself and those immediately around him.

    from this article :https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/12/02/russia-ukraine-putin-policy-523606


    There's quite a lot that could be done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Russioeuropean alliance to kick out the US ,and who's going to stop Putin grabbing everything east of Berlin if the Americans would be kicked out .





  • The Yanks will do the square root of f*ck all regardless.

    If Russia invaded Ukraine, the Yanks wouldn't do anything. They backed down in Syria and would back down in Ukraine.

    USA doesn't get involved in confrontations where the homeland is under threat. Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. Yemen, Pakistan and Libya may not have the capability to attack mainland USA, but Russia does.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Tell that to the several hundred russian troops who got a anilated in Syria after they decided to mount a full scale attack against an American and Kurdish held oil facility



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    Increasingly worrying signs that Russia is prepared for a full scale invasion in the next few weeks. Going to get very ropey in Europe if that happens



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Look, European forces are sub-par but they're still not terrible. Poland has also increased it's military spending, and has realised most of their weaknesses after their last war games, so between Poland's new alertness, and Europe's own military forces, that's enough to stop Russia from doing anything to them. Regardless of whether the US gets involved or not, invading European territory is just not worth the consequences.

    Russia will aim to take the Ukraine because nobody is going to stand up for them. Beyond that though, I seriously doubt Russia will go further west.

    Winning a war against Europe by Russia is probably possible... but what comes after? Occupation of European territories by Russia would bring about a world of pain, both economically, the risks involved by resistance groups, and the social resistance that's likely to occur. Russia wouldn't be able to implement the total warfare and harsh occupation methods they've applied elsewhere... it would be suicide.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    As long as Japan, China, Germany et al form a long orderly queue to buy American debt (and that's not changing any time soon) and the greenback is the world's reserve currency the US is the last country in the world that will go broke. It has never defaulted on Federal debt and the Treasury Secretary and President will eat a boiled shoe on live television before that happens.

    There's a good reason why T-Bills are the safest debt instrument one can buy.

    Your non-economic point is not something anyone suggested. We're highly unlikely to see NATO boots on Ukrainian soil in an invasion scenario, we all know that Ukr is not in a mutual defence pact. An unholy proxy war bankrolled by top-table NATO countries is not something that can be ruled out, and there has likely been scenario planning for just that in smokey rooms that you and I don't get to enter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,573 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    West Germany annexed East Germany and EU/NATO repeatedly intervened militarily to support the carve-up of Yugoslavia. European states have used force in the same time period to suppress secessionist movements as in Northern Ireland and Catalonia, amongst others. European states happily use police and security forces to suppress internal dissent when expedient. EU/NATO has invaded and occupied Afghanistan for close to 20 years, Iraq for slightly shorter, as well as attacking Libya and Syria. They have also attempted to influence internal politics in other states, not least of which being Ukraine. As far back as the Peloponnesian War, the Athenians told the people of Melos that "you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Rightly or wrongly, Putin and Russia are not content to accept that they must take the role of Melos.

    EU/NATO is perfectly happy to use military force and economic threats/coercion when it suits its own purposes to redraw borders, suppress independence movements or force political/legal outcomes in their own sphere of influence. Putin's view of politics is clearly cynical but its not necessarily unique or unusual in that context. One of the primary complaints and causes of Russian resentment over the past 30 years has been that the US and EU/NATO talk a good game about high minded ideals whilst playing in the mud.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    West Germany annexed East Germany and EU/NATO repeatedly intervened militarily to support the carve-up of Yugoslavia.

    What alternative history book was that in .



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  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The whole nord stream thing is something the Americans want to ban anyway, but at a major cost to Europe. Kicking Russia out of swift will probably just cause a different system to be used. The Russians have their own already.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's accurate. It's just a matter of perception.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,878 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    I dunno, is that how they frame those 2 events (German reunification & the Yugoslav wars) on RT, or in crib notes given to Russia's web brigades/influence operations? If it is, I suppose these talking points will just get repeated and reposted on madhouses like this forum seems to be becoming.

    He also mentioned an "EU/NATO" invasion of Iraq which is another erm ..somewhat unique...way to look at the US (& UK) invasion of that country.

    It's receding into past now so I suppose people can start to trial-balloon nonsense like that. Why were the prime movers, the US/UK, not mentioned?

    In fact as regards the different Western military interventions (in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan) there's just one direct reference to the elephant in the room (US) hiding right at the end. This follows after multiple distorted statements of the "EU [!?]/NATO" leading all these military interventions around the globe! The EUs divisions sure have been busy.

    Post edited by fly_agaric on


  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Ok on Yugoslavia - how is the Srebenica massacre perceived as this was main driver in Nato getting involved militarily



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    How did western Europe manage to become dependent on gas from a rogue state which has continued to be at loggerheads with it for the last 100 years ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭Aurelian


    I don't think Russia winning a straight out war against Europe is plausible let alone likely. Europe is far better equipped in most respects. And the Russian army is rife with disease at the personal level.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I said it was a matter of perception. Within the West, the actions of NATO or Western forces tends to be lauded for being humanitarian, even when it involves the reinforcement or installation of pro-western regimes/attitudes. Outside of the west though, countries will see these actions as being no different from the behavior of other countries in their own spheres of influence.

    I'm not criticising NATO or European forces for what they've done.. but I can see that there are double standards being applied. It boils down to propaganda, and the perception of what is "right".

    I dunno. Remember when Trump was going on and on about the lack of commitment by European nations? There were a number of documentaries at that time covering the state of European arsenals, and their readiness for combat, with many criticisms that European equipment wasn't being maintained properly.

    In any case, I see any kind of occupation as being unsustainable... so why would Russia bother to invade Europe? There's no upside.



  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭jamule


    Why do people always forget that the pipeline goes both ways? gas goes to the EU and cash goes to Russia, without the cash Putin is for the gulag, the cash is whats keeping him there and pays for his war games.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    No it's not in any way accurate unless your member of the russian communist party ,

    Germany was one country until the red army arrived in 1945 and annexed everything east of Berlin .

    The people of Germany took back this country when they the people brought down the Berlin wall .


    Perception doesn't come into it



  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭Aurelian



    I don't know if I'd use Trump as my news source! On paper European forces vastly over match Russia. Europe's bigger problem is it has too many soldiers and resources to co-ordinate among 20+ countries. Any prolonged war would see Europe get more organised surely. Also, think of the level of Europe's technological capacity for equipment production. Here is a quote:

    the sheer size of the EU military forces and the size of their collective defense budgets. If taken together, the collective defense budgets of all EU states is second only to the USA in total spending. The number of soldiers in the EU is also very high - there are more EU soldiers than US soldiers. By themselves, the UK, France, Italy, and Germany all make it into the top 10 most powerful militaries, some of them are regularly ranked above Russia in terms of conventional military power. The pool of recruits in the EU is also vastly above Russia, as the population of the EU is roughly 4x larger than that of Russia.

    Also:

    NATO’s European members contain more than 500 million people; Russia’s population is only 145 million. Europeans are also much healthier: Average life expectancy in Europe is roughly 82 years, whereas in Russia it is only 72 (and even lower for men). NATO Europe’s combined GDP is more than $15 trillion; Russia’s GDP is only $1.7 trillion, which is smaller than Italy’s alone. 

    I just think we have this bogeyman view of Russia which doesn't necessarily tally with the facts, though a Russo-European war would be horrific.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't know if I'd use Trump as my news source!

    Which is not what I said.

    I said there were a number of documentaries covering the lack of maintenance of European arsenals/hardware.

    Again, I don't see any reason why Russia would invade Europe, enough to justify the risks involved over the long term.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    100 years? Good man. Might wanna research WWI and WWII, and the first decade of the post Cold War era and the fall of communism.

    small bit of research.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Without the cash he is still popular as ever because Russians would blame the west. He’d divert sales to China anyway or his near abroad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    The same applies to Russian forces and equipment , during the Georgian conflict something like 80% of Russian weapons missed their targets and a high percentage of those weapons that missed failed to even detonate ,they also struggled against relatively small numbers in East Ukraine professional russian forces couldn't defeat inexperienced football houilgans ,

    And yes people will look at NATO against the goat herders In Afghanistan ,the same goat herders pushed russians out ,all the while russia lost more men , equipment and aircraft in a shorter period than NATO loses over 20 years period ,

    Syria is another example russia declared they defeated all anti Assad regime forces and Isis in under three weeks ,all the while releasing Videos of their forces dropping bombs on empty Fields in parts of Syria before having to ask the French government for help finding Isis in Syria ,

    Russia has modernised a small percentage of their forces but for most part they are still poorly trained and equipped using 70s era weapons



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't know what your point is supposed to be.

    Regarding Afghanistan, geography and the nature of the conflict determined the losses involved. The same problems that the US had themselves in trying to control the area. One of the major problems for Russia, was the over reliance on conscripted forces, and morale within the Russian forces. The continuance of the Communist model for the military. That's changed somewhat since Putin got into control, but Afghanistan will always be a terrible place to occupy. In the case of a conventional war between nations, technology has advanced dramatically, but the weapons of 40 years ago, are still effective on the ground.

    Occupation of territory is next to impossible in the modern sense, especially, if you wish to continue interacting with the international community afterwards.

    I've said that I don't see Russia as a direct threat to Europe. Regardless of military capabilities, there are far too many negatives with taking and holding European territories.



  • Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Perseverance The Second


    That is not an entirely accurate picture.

    Russia can still sell plenty of it's gas to the ever increasing Asian markets.

    It's even part of it's long term strategy


    Russia will still hold a colossal amount of influence so long as Europe is dependent on gas.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    WW1 was more than 100 years ago smart lad , Russia/USSR interests briefly coincided in WW2 but George Patton was willing to keep driving east after Germany fell , the first decade after the fall of communism was an era of lawlessness and the rise of the Oligarchs when Russia was more of a danger to itself . To entrust our energy supply to such an entity was madness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    Ah come on now on! Europe was carved up at the Yalta Conference and Patton was going no further than the Elbe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,309 ✭✭✭✭wotzgoingon


    Good looking girls though....


    Also I'm on a computer forum and a guy on it is from Russia. And Americans told him to order the item and get it tomorrow he said I can order it now and it will be delivered in less than 3 hours. Americans thinking their great with the overnight delivery. He said there are some great things about Russia but you have to deal with the cold.



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  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You said for 100 years. Missing WWII is fairly elementary.

    The Russians are natural allies of Europeans, the US is the enemy.



This discussion has been closed.
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