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Is communism as bad as people say

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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Communism = the top 1% Having control over everything ,

    At least us capitalists have freedom and democracy ,no re-education camps or being disappeared for speaking up .



  • Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭techman1


    The only reason why this is even being asked now is because it is over 30 years since the stark realities of communism were there for all to see in Eastern Europe. The backdrop to 1980s popular culture was the grey drab reality of Eastern Europe. Now it is a subject that is barely talked about, actually the second and first world wars along with the Vietnam war are much more prominent topics for drama and documentaries now. Its curious that no modern drama or netflix series are set in Communist Europe or Russia even though it lasted for almost 50 years . Another topic strangely absent from popular drama is the Middle East given the turmoil going on there for decades now



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And they just pick one country. Presume they're poking fun at those who think it seems brilliant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 334 ✭✭rathfarnhamlad


    Eh, it's 2021, the question was answered 30 years ago - the answer was & still is a resounding yes



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Didn't Israel start out as a whole load of communes? The halutzim were very socialist altogether.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,488 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Israel was founded by a socialist basically, David Ben-Gurion...

    israel nowadays is one of the most socially and politically right wing countries on the planet....



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Israel is not a monolith and has an extremely diverse political system and a panoply of parties. The current coalition has everthing from the Labour Party, an Arab party to right wing parties. It's a Frankenstein government.

    Secular Israelis (the ones that dominate the economy and civic life generally) would have a lot in common with the average Irish person temperamentally and politically.

    There has been a succession of (shaky) right wing *led* governments since Netanyahu rather cynically but successfully targetted arrivals from the former Soviet Union and the Orthodox community (often one and the same) who for whatever reason bought into his Palestinian / Iranian boogyman act.

    I wouldn't agree with your assessment that Israel is really one of the most right wing countries in the world. Due to the security situation there is a larger than average constituency that buys into some of the cheaper right wing guff, but it's not as if this isn't heavily contested within the country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Fattybojangles


    Nonsense from start to finish the population grew steadily throughout the period of the Soviet Union year on year apart from during the second world war when 20 million Soviet civilians and soldiers were murdered by fascism. We'd all be speaking German if it weren't for the Soviet Union.

    The stuff about the Soviet government killing 20 million of its own people is pure propaganda nonsense in fact modern day Russians voted Stalin as their greatest ever son as recently as 2017. The Soviet Union made massive advancements in all areas literacy from fewer than 10% to 99.8% Infant mortality rate way down massive population growth massive increases in life expectancy huge advances in manufacturing, infrastructure home building hospitals etc. Not to mention free healthcare free housing free education etc.

    The Soviet Union and Communism brought the Russian and allied peoples from the 17th century barbarism of the Tsars to the 21st century in less than 30 years. Yes they had to burst a few grapes and kill a few landlords along the way but such massive advancements don't come without a price.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,342 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    ...modern day Russians voted Stalin as their greatest ever son as recently as 2017.

    Voted by people by and large who never lived in that era. Rose tinted glasses and all that.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Yes - a historian who studied the consequences of Communist regimes in the 20th Century.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,108 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Of course.

    You fail to see that quite a lot of that progress you mention came form spoils of war. Soviets pretty much looted everything they encountered moving towards Berlin and then, after the war they lived off all countries they submitted to their rule.

    You talk about how they lifted up from 17th century barbarism of the Tsars but fail to see how they sucked life out of more advanced countries they occupied or controlled like Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Poland, Hungary and to the extent Yugoslavia but there they kind of stumbled on Tito who didn't budge.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The stuff about the Soviet government killing 20 million of its own people is pure propaganda nonsense

    So what is the number? Official soviet archives suggest about 3.3million. Not including the millions that died in avoidable famines. About 18million people passed through the gulag in about 30 years and sometimes entire nationalities were deported and exiled to remote areas.

    What you're spouting about busting grapes is the nonsense propaganda.

    799,455 executions (1921–1953), around 1.7 million deaths in the Gulag,some 390,000 deaths during the dekulakization forced resettlement, and up to 400,000 deaths of persons deported -wikipedia



  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Shao Kahn


    So how do you achieve full communism OP?

    Production must outmatch demand/needs considerably. In every single facet of life.

    But because human demand is insatiable and never really constant, it's theoretically impossible to satiate organically. But this is okay in a system that embraces difference and fluctuations in needs.

    In a communist model, you must therefor turn human needs into a constant. You must dictate to the masses what their needs should be. Without exception. This is the only way that you can make sure that production perfectly matches demand. Stifling creativity and individuality, and turning everyone into a machine. A cog in a wheel so to speak.

    Communism makes everyone equal. Equally poor and equally dull.

    "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives, and it puts itself into our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)



  • Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭techman1


    Exactly, that is essentially why communism failed because it failed to accommodate people's future desires and goods . If the whole world had of went communist everyone would be living with 1920s technology and goods. The only reason why there was quasi consumer goods in the Soviet block was that they had to try and compete with what capitalism was producing in the west. They also had to build a big wall to keep everyone in the block and stop nasty western media showing what they were missing in the East.

    Communism famously produced dodgy ugly cars, their only fairly satisfactory car by communist standards the lada, was effectively a fiat 127 design which they bought from fiat and for which you had to wait years for



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think the people who's opinions matter on this subject are - the older generation who lived in the Eastern bloc, the residents of Cuba, Venezuela, Hong Kong. They are the ones who know all too well that communism is repressive and barbaric in practice.


    In theory it works but all the experiments have worked out horrifically for the people forced to live in it.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No true Scotsman. Of course the Soviet Union was communist. What would modern communists do different?

    you are totally confused on social democracy as well. social democracy could easily get rid of the top 1%.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Communism's biggest failing is people.


    People are flawed, greedy, power hungry, corrupt, etc.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You yourself are probably not a capitalist.

    it’s odd by the way, that Marxism is the only form of communism left. The 19C had dozens of them, mostly basically based on communes. Marxism is based on the State owning everything.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Stalin was also a hero in WWII, which is why he’s loved. The Russians like strong leaders. And plenty of Russian nationalists like the USSR because it was an empire.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,389 ✭✭✭dublin49


    communism for me in theory is a desirable way of life but probably unworkable because there is a flaw in its very design.The flaw being that the state takes responsibiilty for providing all the needs of its citizens and when anyone is deemed to be endangering that purpose ,they become an enemy of the state and the subsequent crackdown leads to further unrest and a vicious cycle of revolt and subjugation quickly takes hold,the state then becomes totally paranoid and tyranny follows.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭WrenBoy


    So,

    The Gulags

    The Great Famine and Collectivisation

    The Great Purge

    Order 227


    None of that ever happened? , just propaganda ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    I don't see myself as power hungry or corrupt but I am definitely flawed and a bit greedy. The reason I would do everything possible to escape a communist regime would not be loss of revenue but loss of freedom. All communist regimes have had a strong controlling hierarchy that manage not only economic life but social life too. That's completely unacceptable to me and I'm sure most people. Freedom of expression is also not tolerated. People think that making money is about greed or pride but for many people including me it is about freedom. I want to have enough money to not be coerced into a job I don't want or live in a place I don't like or to be friends with people that I don't particularly care for. It's not about materialism or ego, money brings freedom and choice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,342 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Ah shur we loved the bit of oul repression once ourselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,603 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    The problem with socialism and communism is that such states lack an efficient way to prices goods. Pricing and the profit motive is everything. If a local committee or government is pricing everything, you will get incorrect prices, weaken profit motive, have less growth, and everyone will be worse off. Pricing has to be done by the private market, by actors with profit motives. So socialism might not have a 1% of the super-rich, but you will have the same thing with power, a 1% or thereabouts with government power. Don't underestimate how much damage communism has done over time. Look at Russia. Today the Russian economy is smaller than South Korea, despite twice the population, South Korea is a country that was poorer than Kenya in 1950. 



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152




  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    That, more than likely, has to do with the fact that Stalin's harsh measures won the war against Germany than anything else. It's akin to the British rose tinted view about Churchill being the "greatest Briton".

    An awful lot gets left out of the assessment, due to the fortuitous (for them) circumstances in which each leader found themselves. There's an argument that for both leaders, the war made them and without neither would be remembered that much today. This is particularly true of Churchill, who capitalised on the conflict for all that it was worth.

    Stalin, in all likelihood, would probably have been disposed sooner or later. But with victory achieved, his legendary status was sealed until his death.

    BTW, "great" doesn't necessarily mean most loved or even acceptable. "Great" can merely mean the impact with which something or someone has. Hitler was voted Time Magazine's Man of the Year for his "great" achievements in the 30's. But it didn't mean what you might think it means.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,603 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    I think you can look at Stalin and slate him without any mention of economics systems. His purges of the army in the 1930s massively hurt Russia when the Germans invaded



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭WrenBoy


    Also Stalin only turned on Hitler after Hitler betrayed him and began expanding Eastwards. If he hadn't its very very likely Stalin would have stuck by Hitler until the end of the war. Only then then he would have most likely turned on Hitler when Germany's strength was depleted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    As far as the Soviet Union being "Communist", that very much depends on what one means by that word. As a state modelled on a broadly Marxist view (bear in mind Communism is not Marxism), it fails that test immediately for much of its existence. As a state modelled even on Lenin's view for what the country would become it fails too as under Stalin, what you had was essentially a fascist state with built in hierarchies that were beholden to one leader. Right there, the entire system has strayed from Communism in the most fundamental way.

    "Communist" Russia actually has a very short period of existence that's contracted to the period immediately after the civil war, where policy was attempted along the lines of Communist thinking, including rights for women, free education and the elimination of class. But even before 1924, the rot had started to creep in and the country became less and less Communist and more akin to a strict statist situation with a set of officials that had absolutely no mandate from the people, which is against the Marxist principles by which Lenin wished to adapt his view of the future Russia.

    Under Stalin the idea that Russia was Communist is patently absurd. It represents nothing of what Lenin wanted and in many ways is the opposite of Marx's idea of a classless society where the people had biggest impact on its political affairs. Stalin's Russia undid a lot of what had come before and he rebounded the country back to where it was during the Tsar's time, but now with him as the top man. Citizen's rights were rolled back, the people had no say in political affairs and the party became a instrument that ruled by totalitarian fear.

    None of that is actually Communist. In fact, it's what Communists oppose.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    That doesn't matter once the war was won.

    The same can be said for Churchill, who was the architect of the Dardanelles disaster of WWI and also had a large impact on the failures of Norway in WWII. Churchill's meddling was very often counter productive to Britain's prosecution of the war and at the end of it he had bankrupted the country in pursuit of it.

    But nobody cares about that, because Britain "won".

    People will often negotiate around uncomfortable facts once a favourable outcome is achieved.



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