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To the people who say the troubles was not a war

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Oh come on, if you asked people would they be in favour of stopping the deaths of millions of children in Africa who starve to death every year I'm sure most people would say yes, if you asked them would they be in favour of it if it meant them paying more taxes the answer might change significantly.

    If a referendum was held on unification and we got into an actual debate and real talk about it then without a doubt most people would be in favour of it.

    Ask any question with the phrase ''if it meant paying more taxes'' answers will change significantly.

    The reason Northern Ireland costs so much is because it is effectively it's own country that would change significantly under unification, take any random 6 counties in the Republic of Ireland and make them a country within the UK and the same thing would happen.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Exactly. The decision to unify would apply taxation to a huge proportion of the population of the south who could care less about Northern Ireland. I’m in my 50’s, I couldn’t give a **** about NI, my kids who are in their 20’s have absolutely no interest in it. I would go as far as to say I don’t know one person who cares, the very odd time it has come up in conversation it is met with complete indifference, the people up there are the UKs problem, not ours. If the 6 counties are unified, this country immediately inherits hundreds of thousands of disaffected unionists. And we would have to pay for the privilege. Why would we want this?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    The quote that people in the South could ''care less'' about Northern Ireland is a fairly recent trend only emerging in the last 15 or 20 years but still does not hold up to the opinions of the majority who think all of Ireland is important.

    Me personally could care less about Roscommon or Longford, I think awful Offaly might be the absolute worst place to visit in Ireland, very flat and boring with little of interest and lets be honest, not the nicest of folk.

    Indeed a place that any sensible tourist would always avoid but that's just my opinion like you have yours on 6 counties of Ireland but all 32 counties are a part of Ireland and should be treated as such.



  • Registered Users Posts: 541 ✭✭✭rdwight


    In all fairness, that's a mess of an analysis.

    I think you should have a look at the original report. And keep in mind the distinction you yourself originally made between support for IRA's motives and support for their activities.

    You originally claimed 21% "fully supported" IRA activities. You were wrong. The real figure was 2.8%

    The report summarises "Attitudes to activities" as follows

    Opposition 60.5%

    Neutral 18.7%

    Support 20.7% (of which 2.8% is "strongly supportive").

    If you can conclude that those figures mean that "they were basically half and half about supporting them or not supporting them" then your maths classes at school must have been a lot more entertaining than mine were.

    By the way, there's no need for you tie your self in knots: as the Irish Times article on the report (May 16, 1979) points out, having 21% give any degree of support to IRA activities was an embarrassment for the government of the day.


    I made no claim that the vast majority in the Republic despised the IRA,



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    IF Roscommon, Offaly or Longford were in NI, I would not want to pay for them either, but they aren’t so that’s not much of an analogy. All 32 counties are part of the island of Ireland, but 6 of them are a different country and part of the UK. And I wouldn’t say it is a recent trend of the past 20 yrs. SF are popular down here because the two main parties are so unpopular, they make wild claims about what they would do different and a lot of tenants/people who want to buy homes think they will magically solve all their problems. But we all know it is bluff, it is easy to say what you would do differently if you had the chance, but doing it is a different matter.

    I’d speculate that if the UK government could give the 6 counties back, they would gift wrap them and hold the mother of all parties. But they won’t because the Unionist vote is so important, and I suspect a lot of the catholic community realise that they might be better off where they are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    And only 15% of people ''strongly opposed the IRA'' 25% were only slightly opposed to them.

    Only slightly more than half of the people in the Republic were opposed to the IRA with only 15% of people being strongly opposed and if you don't oppose them I think it's a fair assumption to make that the 22% of people who claimed they were neutral on the subject and the 21% who declared support would at the very least have not been far off having support for them.

    Basically the poll shows nearly half the people in the Republic of Ireland not being opposed to the IRA whatsoever and nearly 70% at the very most only being slightly opposed.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    Is it not time for you to be knocking off and going home? You've been posting in this thread constantly since morning. It can't have been a very productive day for you in work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    I've made a total of 7 posts and about 8 posts altogether today, doesn't seem like much.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    word count?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225




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  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    Would you agree you are unhealthily fixated on this topic?



  • Registered Users Posts: 541 ✭✭✭rdwight


    You originally claimed 21% "fully supported" IRA activities. You were wrong. The real figure was a tiny 2.8%.

    As for your "if you're not vehemently opposed to us, then you must be close to supporting us" flights of fancy. What can I say?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    But the IRA actually made things worse. They hamstrung a strong peaceful movement that was emerging.

    They sure did, and perhaps it suited some people in power at the time to foster the violent militarism, rather than face a peaceful popular uprising that could very well have become revolutionary and a challenge to the status quo as it was, back in those times. Just a thought.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    I'll admit I was wrong about the ''fully supported'' I should have simply said supported.

    I stand by what I said from that poll nearly half of the people in the Republic of Ireland were not opposed to the IRA, if you asked someone in 1979 do you support this armed group who have killed over 1,000 people of the over 2,000 people killed in our country and they said to you ''I'm neutral'' what would you take from that? They refuse to say they are in support or are against them so I guess you can make up your own mind up on what that means.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    Russia DIDN'T fcuking annex Crimea. Crimea was part of Russia for 200 years. IT was given away to Ukraine AGAINST the wishes of it's people in the 1950's. It then returned to Russia, according to the wishers of the people via referendum in 2014. Let's get our facts right about that now.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think you should do a little reading up on the facts yourself, particularly on the circumstances which existed when the vote was taken, Russian military forces had already occupied Crimea prior to the vote, and the choices on the ballad which conveniently excluded retaining the country in the form that existed when the vote was taken.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Offaly is flat?


    I just drove through the Slieve Bloom mountains today.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    You're an embarrassment. The British "chose" to give back the 26 counties. So they would have given them back even if there was no campaign of resistance to British occupation, hmm? Is that what you're stupidly trying to insinuate? Collins' flying columns, raids on barracks, targeted assassinations, boycotts and a slew of other tactics brought the Brits to their knees. British soldiers couldn't move around without coming under attack. Dublin Castle was virtually under siege and the government agents couldn't even leave without being shot. The country was rendered ungovernable but the Brits withdrawing was just a coincidence, right? They would have withdrawn if the country was as peaceful and serene as Somerset or Cornwall? Don't make me laugh. And what rebellions that you speak of have been successfully crushed never to emerge again? Just curious.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    So they were allowed to die of starvation because they couldn't "afford" the food that was being appropriated by the British in order to feed their overseas armies? The country was agrarian and as such was awash with corn, wheat, barley. The amount of which made the modern day EU grain mountains look like mole-hills. This food was shipped out of the country and the starving millions be damned.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    Is there anyone in Ireland starving to death right now. It's not a case of affordability it's a case of availability. A mother with no source of income will do anything to feed her kids even if that means selling her body if she has no money. But she can suck dick from dawn to dusk but her kids will still starve to death if there's no food because it was all shipped overseas. And nobody said that the Brits "caused" the blight unless they were masters in biological warfare in the 1840's. Where you're getting that crap from is a mystery.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    You talk about Northern Ireland and the Falklands and how if enough time passes then legitimacy is attained and then you go off bullsh1tting about Crimea and Taiwan. Crimea has been a Russian region for 100 years longer than the Brits have been occupying The Falklands. Taiwan has been a Chinese province for 1000's.

    You then talk about how the Brits went easy on the Irish. One word for you, mate...............CROMWELL.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace



    Blinkered and ill-informed..haha. Says the guy who calls the Black and Tans a ragtag, unprofessional "dad's army".

    The Black and Tans were sent straight from the Western Front to Ireland. These thugs were a battle-hardened mob of mentally unstable, blood-thirsty, trigger-happy psychopaths brought from the trenches of the Somme and the Marne to the villages of Cork and Kerry and Tipperary.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace




  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    And what exactly spawned the conditions that forced your family to leave Belfast? Was there no explicable reason for the chaos other than a bunch of lunatics wanting to fight, like Millwall Hooligans?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I’m by no means an expert on Famine era Ireland, but if my memory serves me, wasn’t the wheat we exported the type used to feed animals, winter wheat? When the potatoe crop failed, no matter how much bread-making (spring/hard) wheat in Ireland, the country did not have the means of milling/baking it on a scale equivalent to the easy cooking of potatoes. A quick google pretty much dispels a lot of what you are saying, just as it did about Crimea. As you said yourself, read up on the facts.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,409 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    Easy target, he was a resident magistrate , a district court judge now.Probally felt he wasn't at risk.

    Mainly involved in civil cases and minor criminal stuff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    The IRA used to target judges as judges would be letting British soldiers walk free for murders and violent assaults against the Catholic community and often handing down mediocre sentences to loyalists for killing Catholics like Brian Nelson who I mentioned earlier who had served 3 years for torturing an innocent Catholic man to death.

    Maurice Gibson is the most well known, in 1977 he acquitted the soldier who shot Majella O'Hare, a 12-year-old girl. The UK government apologised for this killing in 2011 and said the justification Gibson accepted was "unlikely".

    Unfortunately his wife was also in the car and also died.

    https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/10/06/news/majella-o-hare-12-was-shot-in-the-back-by-british-soldier-and-treated-like-a-piece-of-meat--2089723/



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I agree with you on that last bit, hence why I disagreed with harryd225 that the famine was genocide. The Brits did not cause potatoe blight, it was not genocide.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace



    That he was in a car with an ASU member proves what exactly? Guilt by association or guilt because you want it to be so? Pretty shaky ground to be on going anywhere near an investigation, courtroom or prosecution. I was in a bar in New Jersey. A real dive outside Trenton years ago and had a few drinks with 2 girls I worked with. I played pool with a few guys. Later turned out those guys were members of a white supremacist group. Does that confirm MY membership?



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    "In the past where they belong".

    So what has been happening in Iraq and Afghanistan these past 20 years?

    Britain wasn't an empire in 1972 when they were rounding up people and putting then in concentration camps in Northern Ireland.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,409 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    No , it shows the arrogance of Adams, after being in the car then denying he knew the man at all nevermind the fact that he was an IRA man.

    What it also shows is the disdain for the general public he has, thinking that people will belive the shite he spouts.

    Tell me this , how come Adams has never taken any substantive legal action against any agency or individuals who say he was in the IRA.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Depends on whether you were a member of the white supremists, I’m reminded of that famous Tonight show when Vincent Browne slammed down book after book saying Martin McGuinness was in the IRA, some written by former members, while McGuinness brazenly lied about his membership. If you think Adams isn’t/wasn’t a member, you are pissing against the wind.

    Either Adams wasn’t a member at the time, or he was the dumbest ass ever to walk the Earth to be President of SF and not know the guy was in the IRA. We know GA is no dumbass.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    Really? Are you trying to say the rules and ethics suddenly changed after the civilian populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were incinerated? Then all of a sudden deliberate targeting of civilians became a no-no?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure you'll give some mealy-mouthed, American get-out clause, cliche for the deliberate targeting of civilians at the hands of American military.

    Aren't your precious rules that a military operation should not be embarked upon if there is a possibility that civilians might be victims? I think I read that somewhere. Yet bombing North Korean civilian centres to the point that not a single building higher than 1 storey was left standing. 20% of the population wiped out. All an accident right? Collateral damage. The bombing of Hanoi? The complete razing to the ground of massive swathes of Vietnam and Cambodia. That was all done with the full knowledge that not a single civilian would be inconvenienced let alone wounded or killed? The destruction of Mosul and Fallujah...shelled to rubble as 30,000 screaming people perished. The Haditha Massacre where the perpetrators were spirited back Stateside.

    If all these were an unfortunate mistake and something the US would never stand for then why has nobody admitted culpability or been prosecuted? An apache gunship aircrew mowed down a group including Reuters reporters and then laughed at their day's work. Not finished they turned they gatling cannons on those who came to help the wounded. And you know who is rotting in jail for this episode of gallantry? Not the murderous gunship crew but Manning and Assange who made public the footage of this savagery.

    Outside of deliberately targeting civilians, is it not also a war crime or something to attack a retreating army. Cue Iraq's retreat from Kuwait in 1991. They thought their surrender and subsequent retreat was covered by the "laws" of ground warfare. Think again. The retreating convoys included as many civilians as retreating military personnel. The US blocked the retreat with mines, bombed the rearguard and vanguard and then embarked upon a massacre. Extra air traffic controllers had to be drafted in to deal with the warplanes and their pilots eager to get in on the zero-risk carnage.

    You bitch about SS panzer commander Joachim Piper murdering US GI's who have surrendered in Malmady in France and give a free pass to the above sickening barbarism.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Did Martin McBirney ever preside over a case involving a British soldier?



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace



    You're in your 50's and still don't have the brains to know that the turn of phrase is COULDN'T care less.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace



    Thant's not the point. You are trying to fish where there is no water. The crux of the thread id whether or not the conflict in NI was or was not a war. Yes, I got into tangential discussions about the validity of resistance to foreign occupation and what constitutes a righteous kill as opposed to a cold-blooded murder. But that's by-the-by. You are always talking about "would" as if you have a crystal ball. The same shabby predictions were tabled by cosy Bavarians in 1989. "Vee must not accept zoze Eastern scum. Vee will have to pay". And don't give me this crap about how Ze Germans are better at crisis management. If I had a budget and a United Ireland I'd bring in the Dutch and the Germans and say "Gent, some of this island's most beautiful spots are isolated. Your recommendation?"

    "We build comfortable electric railway from Dublin direct to Donegal, Derry, Belfast. We build more motorways. You have a lake, Loch Neigh Ze size of Luxembourg"

    But your argument is that you might have to pay a few pennies extra.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    What's the difference between fully supporting and just supporting?



  • Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Shilock


    My grandfather witnessed the black and tans intimidate his parents uncles and neighbors etc in North Kerry during the early 1900's they were right villians the tans.

    A lot of Northern English men from Yorkshire and Newcastle ransacking peaceful folks,robbing vegetables and meat, egg's chickens etc, revenge was sweet I was told. And I'm proud of my heritage and the men and women who drove them out. If we were under siege again a lot of the young men wouldn't fight, because they wouldn't have it in them. It would probably be guys in their 40's to 70's and a lot of women would fight too. The young women of today are actually stronger than men of the same age, I could see them having to drag their men from their laptops and phones hiding in sheds. Actually they probably couldn't drive a nail most of them....



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That’s the limit of your ability? A grammatical correction. Yet again, you need to read up on your facts, both versions of the phrase are used, and accepted. Google is your friend.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Don’t ever give anyone pointers on grammar, or spelling, without checking your own posts.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    Russian Forces had their Black Sea Fleet and a Naval Base in Crimea for decades before it was given away to Ukraine by Khruschev in the 1950's. Since the Ukraine, and Russia, at this time were part of the USSR, there was grumbling but little changed. When the USSR broke apart in 1991 the FIRST thing the Crimeans requested was a return to Russia since they would now be a Russian enclave in a newly established Ukrainian state.

    As for your gibberish about whether staying as part of Ukraine for a few decades ought to have been part of the choice? Why? You already mentioned in previous posts that the Brits "gave back" 26 counties. In order to give something "back" you have to take it in the first place.

    Russia took back Crimea to the delight of the local population and not a shot was fired.

    You really ought to visit. I was there in 2018 and never saw any graffiti along the lines of "Russians Out! Peace In" as you are trying to blag.

    Crimea is Russian and has been for centuries and the Crimean people agree and want it that way. You don't like it because you think that Vlad the Impaler is Dracula with a hammer and sickle on his back about to gobble up the world and eat babies.

    And you've been told that.

    If Crimea was invaded against the will of the Crimean people then why is there no resistance to Russian occupation? If the referendum was so skewed then why did Gallup and MORI endorse it as one of the fairest in their experience? If the Crimean people wanted to remain part of an independent Ukraine then why have they clamoured for 25 years to return to Russian sovereignty?

    Maybe YOU ought to do some reading.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That’s quite a tangent.

    I’m going to leave you with a quotation:

    ”I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What was he doing in the bar in ballinamore?

    It's relevant what he was doing, he just didn't appear in the car!



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    Your words:

    [ Britain and the US invaded Afghanistan because they were harboring (sic) terrorists within their borders. Who stopped them? ]


    Is that sanctioned by the Geneva Protocols?

    One can invade a country because they are harbouring criminals now?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    We all know Gerry Adams was never in the IRA so you can stop all this now you're getting desperate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    I don't really know much about the subject so I don't want to get into it but if what he said is true then it looks like he won the argument and now you just want nothing to do with it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    You're absolutely correct. You are no expert on the Famine in Ireland, or precious little for that fact.

    Are you now attempting to establish that there were two strains of wheat in Ireland in 1845? One strain that only animals could eat and another that only humans could eat?

    Tell me exactly what grains a cow/pig/goat will eat that would not be digestible by human?

    Are you thick? If wheat was taken from the country yet it was useless for human consumption, then why was it taken?

    Now is there a similar argument for barley, oats, corn?

    That was all shipped out because it was bollocks that nobody could eat anyway.?



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It was taken To feed animals.

    Is there some reason Irish people couldn't eat fish?



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  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Britain never put people in concentration camps in Northern Ireland?

    What's this rubbish



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