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Is communism as bad as people say

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Harryd225


    Here's a quote from the ''great'' Winston Churchill when speaking about the Bengali famine in which 3 million people died largely cause British policy in India, “I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.”



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Zhukov was the man that redeemed Eastern Europe from Nazism (in leadership terms, the heroism of millions of Soviet citizens on the front deserves mention), not Stalin. Stalin didn't have a breeze about military affairs or how to conduct a war.

    Stalin was a street thug who had just enough smarts to climb the hierarchy and used historic levels of bloodletting to keep himself there. One of the most repugnant political figures of the 20th century on a personal level.



  • Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Shilock


    If you went through the 70's and 80's in eastern Germany you would never want communism back. It sounds all liberal and rosey but when people get into power they'll do anything to keep it even if it means you've no arse in your trousers... they'll turn on you



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    No.

    Both Stalin and Hitler danced around each other, but neither were going to "stick by" one another. The non-aggression pact of 1939 was cynical baloney and both sides knew it. However, for Germany it severed the entente diplomacy between Russia, Britain and France and for Russia it gave them the much needed time in which to prepare for what many suspected was inevitable.

    Russia had already been in a process of revamping its military as they knew that Germany (or more to the point Hitler) was interested in Lebensraum and Lebensraum meant expansion eastwards to the "breadbasket of Europe". None of that particular part of the Hitlerian future world view was lost on the Russian leadership and Hitler's previous, and numerous, verbal expansions on what he wanted in that part of the world.

    In all reality, however, there was never a situation whereby Russia or Germany weren't ever going to be at loggerheads at some point. Both Stalin and Hitler were two men who were desirous of national expansion and that eventually would bring the two nations into conflict of some sort.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,406 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    The same people who "voted" for Putin all these years.

    Communism is great as an economic ideal but won't work in the hands of humans. Maybe someday is some far distant future but humans as we know them throughout history are way too open to corruption



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Well, Churchill was a man that was deeply rooted in the 19th Century, so he was a man of his time and his views often reflected that accordingly. He considered the Empire as the pinnacle and countries outside of it were either "lesser" or were its possessions. This was the common point of view among Britons irrespective of their position.

    Churchill is, today, remembered by most for his time as PM during the war. But the bulk of his life is a story told elsewhere. The war merely gave him his time in the sun as it were.

    But it would be somewhat unfair to pick out isolated quotes from him given at a certain time in his life and draw fixed conclusions, just as it would be for anyone whether they're in the public eye or not. Churchill's views were subject to change over his years and how he viewed things could differ greatly from time to time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭WrenBoy


    No. (rude opening btw)

    I imagine Germany and Russia would have turned on each other after Europe was under control. But this is all theory anyway, one thing is for sure Stalin didn't oppose the Nazi's for any reason other than Hitler had broken their non-aggression pact. A move he was not expecting, as displayed by his initial disbelief when he received initial intel on German tank movements into Russian held territory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    And that's just in Russia.


    Add in the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, Mao in China, and yeah that Auld Communism is a real winner...



  • Registered Users Posts: 214 ✭✭a2deden




  • Registered Users Posts: 214 ✭✭a2deden


    You havent a clue, what about the guys crossing on boats



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  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nobody has to take that seriously. All communist countries became statist dictatorships because that’s what Marxism proposes as the mechanism to a “classless” society. State takeover. Even before the first ever Marxist regime the communist anarchist Bakunin predicted a dictatorship, and of course he was right. There’s no way that Marxism can be anything other than tyranny

    which is why all of them were

    (by the way if there’s any greater example of the stupidity in modern left wing movements it’s anarchists with Marxist symbols on their Twitter feed)



  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭Annascaul


    The problem with communism was that individual opinion or voicing individual opinions was suppressed and those who didn't agree ended up in some form of labour camp.

    Also the idea of ownership didn't really exist and various freedoms like to travel was limited, even within one country. The Covid restrictions of the 5km radius in Ireland should give you some idea. And then communism was a failed economy basic food items and also spare parts for nearly everything were often limited to get or hard to come by, - also there was a strong black market economy going on.

    I'd say the only good thing communism had, was affordable housing for everyone, and those who agreed with the communist system and were halfway competent found work, and often free childcare and in mathematic science they weren't bad either, but that's about as good as things would have gotten.

    Remember it was communism which shot at people trying to cross the border like over the iron curtain. Or the great famine in the Ukraine caused by Russian communists to impose communism on the farming sector there. The system was anything else but humane and economically it was a total failure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    Also preposterously damaging to the environment. The Aral Sea trgedy, air pollution at 1.5 times the size of the US at the time per unit of GNP by 1988, massive dumping of nuclear waste into the Sea of Japan up until 1993. And that's the tip of the Communist Iceberg in the USSR.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Well I'll be even ruder and say that history will trump your imagination at every turn.

    You can imagine any scenario you wish, but the fact of the matter is that both Hitler and Stalin were very much in opposition by default. Hitler had spent his early political years explaining in very clear terms what his plans were for the east and none of that was lost on the Russians, Joseph Stalin included.

    Each side may have played a cagey game with with another, even to a point where they included sharing information about certain things. But neither side were in any kind of kinship, that's for sure. Russia even invited a German military delegation to view some of their own equipment in the late 30's. However it was equipment that was planned to be phased out within the next three years and the actual numbers they had on hand were hidden too. So much so that when the Germans invaded in the Summer of 1941, they were surprised at just how much the Russians could call upon. They also got a kick in the arse when they came up against the likes of the T-34, of which they had no idea about. Hitler, himself, later confided to Mannerheim that Germany had grossly underestimated the Russian inventory. A rare admittance from the Fuhrer that he had, essentially, been fooled.

    As for Stalin's "initial disbelief", that's more to do with the timing of Barbarossa, rather than its actuality. BTW, Barbarossa surprised pretty much everyone when it happened, but not because it happened. There was much disbelief in the States and Britain too when it happened. But it was long since understood that, at least, the Ukraine was going to be a bone of contention between the two nations at some point, irrespective of the mutually beneficial non-aggression pact signed in 1939.

    As for Stalin opposing Hitler, he very much did. But actually making war on Germany was out of the question for Russia in the period in question. They just weren't in a position to do that, especially on a unilateral level. Plus, Russia had already approached the western allies during the Czech crisis about dealing with Germany and were rebuffed, because Poland wouldn't allow Russia access. So as far as they were concerned, relying on the west should they "have a go", as it were, was dodgy ground. Plus, it was no secret that in both France and Britain there were many people in power that would have had no problem with Germany and Russia knocking the crap out of each other while they stood by and Chamberlain's appeasement only served to reinforce that conception.

    However, Hitler the idea of Hitler having to turn west, borne out of the very real expectation of a western European war, was very welcome to the Russians because, again, it bought them the time they needed to be able to deal with Germany should the eventual situation arise. They just didn't reckon on France falling in six weeks subsequent events being dealt with within the year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,782 ✭✭✭I see sheep




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,782 ✭✭✭I see sheep


    Haven't read the whole thread but saying Communism/Socialism is bad becasue of Stalin is the same as saying

    Capitalism is wrong because of any of Hitler/Mussolini/USA since WW2 and the millions they've killed.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    False dilemma. Bit at least capitalist nations can be free - although the present panic isn’t helping that argument.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,782 ✭✭✭I see sheep


    You think Americans are free?

    They're the most captive society in the world. They've been conned.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Americans are mind controlled zombies. Bit then I didn’t mention the US. There’s plenty more capitalism out there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Under the Marxist/Leninist ideal, the "state" is to eventually be done away with in a the post Capitalist society and power is to be derived by the people with representatives to administer the mechanisations of that power. Marxism doesn't really "propose" the state because, technically, Marx believed that the state was a means of oppression, he said that the state was "...nothing but a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie". His idea was that the state was a tool for the powerful to control the underclasses and it's eventual elimination was essential to the achievement of a classless country.

    This is where the like of Soviet Russia, or North Korea, or China fails completely in the "Communist test". None of those countries are what Communists envision because none of those countries were ever Communist in the sense that power was being mandated by the people, which is the ultimate aim of Communists. They were all hijacked by a small group that holds power, which is the complete opposite to what Marx wrote about.

    The "state" was bourgeois concept that Marx and Lenin vehemently opposed, because they believed that it was an instrument for oppression of workers. This is why Stalinist Russia is a contradiction to the general understanding of what a Communist situation is supposed to be, at least in theoretical terms.

    As to the issue of "all communist countries" becoming "statist dictatorships", again I'll say one must look at who is using Communism as a means of control. Communism can be offered as a sop to the masses by entities that are demonstrably not actually Communist.



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  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Again - nobody except Marxists takes the withering of the state seriously. It’s a fantasy. Not only did Bakunin predict the future of Marxism accurately, every single Marxist society had economies dominated by state owned enterprises and not one of them dissolved the state. Not one of them intended to. If Marxists wanted a stateless communism there were other models out there (like anarchy or anarcho communism). Why is the state intervening at all when workers could just take over their factories and farms and run them as communes?

    How does the Marxist state wither away anyway? Do the powerful bureaucrats wake up one morning and fire themselves? Do the state employed industrialists fire themselves. Do the communist apparatchiks fire themselves? Of course not. Marxism was always designed to be a dictatorship.

    (and it’s Engels not Marx who mentioned the withering of the State)



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    From Bakunin:

    What does it mean that the proletariat will be elevated to a ruling class? Is it possible for the whole proletariat to stand at the head of the government? There are nearly forty million Germans. Can all forty million be members of the government? In such a case, there will be no government, no state, but, if there is to be a state there will be those who are ruled and those who are slaves.

    The Marxist theory solves this dilemma very simply. By the people’s rule, they mean the rule of a small number of representatives elected by the people. The general, and every man’s, right to elect the representatives of the people and the rulers of the State is the latest word of the Marxists, as well as of the democrats. This is a lie, behind which lurks the despotism of the ruling minority, a lie all the more dangerous in that it appears to express the so-called will of the people.

    Ultimately, from whatever point of view we look at this question, we come always to the same sad conclusion, the rule of the great masses of the people by a privileged minority. The Marxists say that this minority will consist of workers. Yes, possibly of former workers, who, as soon as they become the rulers of the representatives of the people, will cease to be workers and will look down at the plain working masses from the governing heights of the State; they will no longer represent the people, but only themselves and their claims to rulership over the people. Those who doubt this know very little about human nature.


    From https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bakunin/works/1873/statism-anarchy.htm



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    And - while i am here - saying the state is a bourgeois project (which was absolutely true in the 19C when only the bourgeois could vote anyway) doesn’t mean that the Marxists didn’t want to takeover the state - of course they did.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    It's not a fantasy. It's a theory.

    It's also a theory that has never been applied properly. Which gives credence to the argument that Communists put forth when they say that the likes of Soviet Russia wasn't "true Communism" and that "true Communism" hasn't ever really existed.

    As to "how does the Marxist state wither away anyway", that (I suppose) comes about by rigorous checks and balances from the people...again, in theory. Marx's idea is that all power is constantly questioned by the people and that's where any Communist regime has failed the test, as it were. Especially in the case of Russia.

    Again, I'll say, it's imperative to look at WHO is using Communism. It has always gone against the tenets of Communism itself in any example that can be cited.

    As for Engels and Marx, it was Marx (at least early on) who separated the State into distinct bodies where in his ultimate vision was that the state would be eventually dissolved.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That’s a false dilemma, a theory can be a fantasy, as this one is. A philosopher could theorise the fantasy that humans could flap their arms and fly but it would lead to a lot of dead people.

    In both practice and in theory Marxist communism is statist. That marxists insist without proof or explanation their all encompassing state will eventually wither away doesn’t change this ; just as gravity will hurtle the proponents of arm flapping to their death at the bottom of a cliff, human nature will keep Marxist states intact. In fact you admit this when you blame people who are forever “using communism [for power]” but unlike Bakunin who understands that human nature will inevitably keep the apparatchiks in power, you seem to think it’s merely unfortunate that this happens all the times it does happen, which is every time it has been tried.

    if communist power was to be “continuously checked” by the people then the marxists would be ousted, just as they were ousted when the threat of Soviet and Warsaw Pact violence retreated in 1989. Marxist societies have to be dictatorships or they have to cease to exist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,334 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    a theory can be a fantasy

    Tell that to a scientist. 😉 A fantasy is something where anything at all can happen. A theory is a set of specific circumstances. Communism is something that is possible. Yet, as I have mentioned, end game Communism is an improbability due to its insistence on the elimination of all private property, considering the constraints with which something like that faces. Yet it is not something that is a complete fantasy.

    I would be of the opinion that Communism could work on a small scale. However at a larger scale, there are bound to be complications, even if the power brokers are genuine in their pursuits.

    In both practice and in theory Marxist communism is statist.

    That's plain and simply wrong.

    In practice so far, any attempt at Communism has failed to reproduce Marxist theory. But that can be argued that that was because of WHO was using Communism as a means to their end and not Communism in and of itself, which is where your assessment falls down. This is the same as saying that Capitalism doesn't have to end up as a boom and bust inevitability with the cronies of certain cabals and outcomes being able to weather the storm , but in the wrong hands it can. The modern implementation of Capitalism regularly gets boiled down to that, but the theoretical musings of Capitalism doesn't suggest that that is the way things are supposed to be.

    All of your points above just reinforce the idea of what proponents of Communism put forth when they invoke the "real Communism" argument used in conjunction with the real life examples that can be presented.

    if communist power was to be “continuously checked” by the people then the marxists would be ousted

    i.e. it's failed the test. Ergo, Communism has never really existed in real world terms.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭John Doe1


    Yes, communism has failed everywhere it has been tried and killed more humans than any other ideology.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,759 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog




  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I sometimes wonder whether these systems of social organization and control are just lipstick on a pig (that pig being you, me, and the rest of society). I mean, it's stunning how alike the outcomes are, regardless of political ideology.

    Equality? In communism, we find that there is still a hierarchy (party members at the top, of course).

    Environment? Boo - greedy capitalists, right? Well yes, but what is the environmental track record of the USSR or more recently the CCP? A disaster.

    War mongering? A favourite of both systems.

    The Police State? Boo - bad communists, right? Yes, but the surveillance levels in nominally 'free' non-communist societies is off the charts compared to decades past.

    Spirituality and religion? Well, communism is explicitly Godless and materialistic, whereas the neo-liberal world we inhabit is... oh nevermind.

    There are more...

    Ireland is doing an OK (not great) job of navigating between the extremes (that are quite alike anyway), but the outcomes will always mirror each other because the inputs --human beings-- remain the same.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    It makes people slaves and makes thinking a crime, during the rule of Mao , it wasn't enough to keep quiet about things ,you needed to express support for oppression



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