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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Putin's critique of current western values:

    translation

    "The importance of a solid support in the sphere of morals, ethics and values is increasing dramatically in the modern fragile world. In point of fact, values are a product, a unique product of cultural and historical development of any nation. The mutual interlacing of nations definitely enriches them, openness expands their horizons and allows them to take a fresh look at their own traditions. But the process must be organic, and it can never be rapid. Any alien elements will be rejected anyway, possibly bluntly. Any attempts to force one’s values on others with an uncertain and unpredictable outcome can only further complicate a dramatic situation and usually produce the opposite reaction and an opposite from the intended result.


    We look in amazement at the processes underway in the countries which have been traditionally looked at as the standard-bearers of progress. Of course, the social and cultural shocks that are taking place in the United States and Western Europe are none of our business; we are keeping out of this. Some people in the West believe that an aggressive elimination of entire pages from their own history, “reverse discrimination” against the majority in the interests of a minority, and the demand to give up the traditional notions of mother, father, family and even gender, they believe that all of these are the mileposts on the path towards social renewal.


    Listen, I would like to point out once again that they have a right to do this, we are keeping out of this. But we would like to ask them to keep out of our business as well. We have a different viewpoint, at least the overwhelming majority of Russian society – it would be more correct to put it this way – has a different opinion on this matter. We believe that we must rely on our own spiritual values, our historical tradition and the culture of our multiethnic nation.


    The advocates of so-called ‘social progress’ believe they are introducing humanity to some kind of a new and better consciousness. Godspeed, hoist the flags as we say, go right ahead. The only thing that I want to say now is that their prescriptions are not new at all. It may come as a surprise to some people, but Russia has been there already. After the 1917 revolution, the Bolsheviks, relying on the dogmas of Marx and Engels, also said that they would change existing ways and customs and not just political and economic ones, but the very notion of human morality and the foundations of a healthy society. The destruction of age-old values, religion and relations between people, up to and including the total rejection of family (we had that, too), encouragement to inform on loved ones – all this was proclaimed progress and, by the way, was widely supported around the world back then and was quite fashionable, same as today. By the way, the Bolsheviks were absolutely intolerant of opinions other than theirs.


    This, I believe, should call to mind some of what we are witnessing now. Looking at what is happening in a number of Western countries, we are amazed to see the domestic practices, which we, fortunately, have left, I hope, in the distant past. The fight for equality and against discrimination has turned into aggressive dogmatism bordering on absurdity, when the works of the great authors of the past – such as Shakespeare – are no longer taught at schools or universities, because their ideas are believed to be backward. The classics are declared backward and ignorant of the importance of gender or race. In Hollywood memos are distributed about proper storytelling and how many characters of what colour or gender should be in a movie. This is even worse than the agitprop department of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.


    Countering acts of racism is a necessary and noble cause, but the new ‘cancel culture’ has turned it into ‘reverse discrimination’ that is, reverse racism. The obsessive emphasis on race is further dividing people, when the real fighters for civil rights dreamed precisely about erasing differences and refusing to divide people by skin colour. I specifically asked my colleagues to find the following quote from Martin Luther King: “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the colour of their skin but by their character.” This is the true value. However, things are turning out differently there. By the way, the absolute majority of Russian people do not think that the colour of a person's skin or their gender is an important matter. Each of us is a human being. This is what matters.


    In a number of Western countries, the debate over men’s and women’s rights has turned into a perfect phantasmagoria. Look, beware of going where the Bolsheviks once planned to go – not only communalising chickens, but also communalising women. One more step and you will be there.


    Zealots of these new approaches even go so far as to want to abolish these concepts altogether. Anyone who dares mention that men and women actually exist, which is a biological fact, risk being ostracised. “Parent number one” and “parent number two,” “'birthing parent” instead of “mother,” and “human milk” replacing “breastmilk” because it might upset the people who are unsure about their own gender. I repeat, this is nothing new; in the 1920s, the so-called Soviet Kulturtraegers also invented some newspeak believing they were creating a new consciousness and changing values that way. And, as I have already said, they made such a mess it still makes one shudder at times.


    Not to mention some truly monstrous things when children are taught from an early age that a boy can easily become a girl and vice versa. That is, the teachers actually impose on them a choice we all supposedly have. They do so while shutting the parents out of the process and forcing the child to make decisions that can upend their entire life. They do not even bother to consult with child psychologists – is a child at this age even capable of making a decision of this kind? Calling a spade a spade, this verges on a crime against humanity, and it is being done in the name and under the banner of progress."



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He's right about pretty much everything there.



  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't think it is in Ireland's interests to encourage militarization or warfare on the part of any of the great powers (aka bullies/rogue states), or to champion any of the great powers' narratives.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,923 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    Big Russia build up against Ukraine now, currently 94,000 troops amassed at the border now, intelligence experts saying an invasion could start early 2022. Personally I think it's a giant exercise by Putin to appease nationalists at home and extract some sort of concessions, but obviously a highly dangerous game to play.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    Patton tried to convince Eisenhower , correctly that Russia / USSR was a bigger threat than Germany but at Yalta Roosevelt and Churchill confident in the power of the atom bomb to subjugate Russia had already carved up Europe to their own ends.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande



    Discussion between Alexander Mercouris, Alex Christoforou and Gonzalo Lira (Chilean-American who lives in Kharkov, Ukraine) on the politics of Ukraine from the Russian side.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    This is a great conversation, although I'd offer the caveat that they're far too sympathetic to the point of view that the predominance of Russian speakers in Donbas / Lukhansk / Kharkiv etc makes them legitimate targets of Russian irredentist ambitions and the underhanded hybrid warfare. For one thing, a lot of those Russian speakers were transplanted in the Donbas etc after heavy Soviet industrialization of the coal mining areas which really took off after the war. Further, a lot of those Russian speakers are ethnically Ukrainian and their grandfathers would have been subsumed into the Russian-speaking working class upon moving to the cities.

    Here's a map of the ethnic makeup of Ukraine in 1900 (Helpful if you can read Cyrillic). Of the above cites, Donetsk* is a Russian ethnic island in a sea of Ukrainian ethnics, Kharkiv and Lukhansk majority Ukrainian at the time. There may have been either a majority of or a large minority of Russian speakers in these cities, but only just and it's largely because Russian was the language of modernity. Speaking Russian as a first language is not an accurate proxy for one's ethnicity or even one's attitudes towards the Ukrainian national question (even today).

    Also note Crimea which at the time was a multiethnic appendage to the Russian Empire. Crimean Tartars now dispersed all over former Soviet lands thanks to Stalin's efforts. Crimea was a place where wealthy Muscovites and those from Petrograd came to convalesce and go swimming in the Black Sea. A place a lot of Russian nationalists have a fondness for I'm sure, but the hard-line that is was Russia since time immemorial doesn't hold much historical water. Note also that Ukrainian ethnics are spread far and wide beyond the modern borders of the country.

    Putin's angle is a crude headcounts of Russian speakers in the 21st century to target areas to destabalise the country like a jealous ex-boyfriend because she's found a new date

    *Fun-fact, Donetsk was founded by a Welsh mining engineer called Hughes and was called Yuzivka (as can be seen on the map). Maybe Boris Johnson could set up a Peppa Pig World amusement park there and claim it for the Tans.

    ** Red = Ukranian, Green = Russian. See the key on the bottom left for other ethnics (in Cyrillic)



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,923 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Bit of a strange site, but sure what the claim is? Putin is not denying the troops are there



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    While 100k troops amassed on a border is significant in its own way, you'd have serious doubts that kind of number could really lead to a successful operation and invasion of a very large country.

    For example, The US mobilized 700k troops for Desert Storm to take Kuwait out of Sadam's clutches, a much smaller landmass.

    That would lead me to believe that Putin doesn't really intend to do anything serious and is just trying to spook NATO.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭victor8600


    You do understand that all of this is just a misdirection exercise? What this former communist functionary says is a 95% lie, cunningly constructed to look like a coherent narrative to achieve some objective. Do read Pelevin's novels if you want to understand what Russian society is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Pelevin#Novels



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,923 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    A small amount of "rebels" (backed by Russian forces) managed to seize quite a bit of territory in 2014. That said, I wouldn't say it's a "national invasion force", more a build-up to cause pressure. If in the unlikely event, action were to take place it would likely be limited maneuvers to "back local rebels" or some select propaganda. I highly doubt any sort of black/white invasion of Ukraine is going to take place, would be pretty ridiculous, even for the Kremlin.

    Personally as mentioned I think its just a move to appease the hardliners on the Ru side and to pressure Nato/US into concessions, etc and bring them to the table - which is precisely what's happening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I think the Ukrainian armed forces (and everyone else) are wise to the hybrid warfare tactics that brought Russia success in Crimea and Donbas in 2014. I think they were genuinely stunned how it went down.

    Further gains or an invasion would now require conventional means. The element of surprise is gone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,923 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Possibly, but IF (hypothetically), if the Russians genuinely went full at it, they'd mash the Ukrainians. Likewise, if they wanted to take some limited border actions, it wouldn't be too difficult. Russia may have Italy levels of GDP, but they have significant military means.

    Anyway, it's all just hypothetical, there's nothing for them to gain from larger military (conventional) action. Would just be a headache for them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭victor8600


    Anyway, it's all just hypothetical, there's nothing for them to gain from larger military (conventional) action.

    Exactly, why bother with a full scale invasion, when the Salami tactic works so well? Crimea here, bit of Donbass there.

    https://youtu.be/o861Ka9TtT4



  • Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭Art Fonzarelli


    Why do you think it's a strange site? The claim is that the reports about Russia building troops in order to attack Ukraine are rubbish.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,923 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Okay, it's some blog post which starts out by mentioning the Iraq war and then goes into speculation that the US, NATO and Ukraine will attack rebel held territory in Feb whilst offering no evidence for that. Wouldn't put much stock, if any, into it.

    Russia has been amassing troops on the Ukraine border, no one is denying that. Do they have plans to attack Ukraine? Very likely, every country with a military and a potential conflict scenario on it's borders or in it's influence will have such plans, with movements, army sizes, dates, etc. It doesn't mean they'll follow through.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Fiery mutant


    He is in his shite right about everything. Putin is the classic conman, showing his empty right hand while picking your pocket with his left. Is he really saying that teachers are forcing children to change genders??!!


    “ That is, the teachers actually impose on them a choice we all supposedly have. They do so while shutting the parents out of the process and forcing the child to make decisions that can upend their entire life.”


    that’s crazy republican talk right there, straight from the Gym Jordan school of ‘protect the paedo’. Didn’t Pompeo state recently that parents should be able to decide what their children are taught?! The perfect way to ensure humanity dies an early death.

    We should defend our way of life to an extent that any attempt on it is crushed, so that any adversary will never make such an attempt in the future.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Looks like we are being more and more prepped for the possibility of a war. Constant articles in the "Media" and Americans and Europeans issuing "warnings".

    We also have the threat of 5 million refugees coming from the Ukraine into the EU along with reports of millions more from Afghanistan in 2022 due to Taliban control and increasing food insecurity and threats of famine.


    Edit for Telegraph article

    "The West’s nightmare: a war on three fronts

    There has never been a more unsettling strategic landscape in my lifetime – we must turn our attention to the prospect of conflict"


    Jesus, it never ends with these people....

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭Art Fonzarelli


    I still don't see how it's 'strange'. Yes, it's a blog site, that's not strange in itself. At the beginning the author predicts a possible event based on previous actions. He then describes how we are being prepped for this event and, using evidence, how most of this prep is rubbish. This also isn't strange.

    In fact, taking into consideration the lies that were used, passed to us uncritically by a compliant media, to prepare us for the destruction of Iraq (and I'm sure we can all think of various other similar occasions - Gaddafi was about to massacre a load of people for example), the highlighting of lies in this current case is pretty significant. The lies beg the question, what are they for?

    What do others think?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,923 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Right, where does this poster provide any credible evidence that the US, NATO and Ukraine will attack rebel-held ground in Feb 22? They also make the claim that it will not be reported on, again with no evidence. Then if you thought it couldn't get any more Alex Jones, the poster claims the whole thing will be done to provoke Russia into attacking, again with no evidence. It's baseless and not to mention silly stuff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 710 ✭✭✭TefalBrain


    The fact no positive spin came out of the Putin Biden meeting tells me things must have gone pretty bad indeed. If the tanks roll across the Ukraine border all bets are off. Could be a very cold winter in Europe.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's not a great sign. It'll be ordinary people in the Ukraine/Europe/Russia paying the price once again if it all kicks off.

    As an aside, Russia's population has declined by a million people this year. They are in the midst of a serious demographic collapse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 710 ✭✭✭TefalBrain


    With an aging egomaniac in charge. The best thing for the world right now would be for Putin to drop dead of a heart attack/stroke etc..



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,883 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    However, it is not US's/European govt.'s or the US/European media's fault if Russia does decide to take the rest of (or more of) Ukraine by force. (edit: not trying to support Daily Telegraph's opinions with this statement!)

    I don't think any Western countries will get directly involved, but Russia is the one starting the "war" if they do that.

    They don't have some moral right to their "near abroad" or sphere of influence extending over neighbouring countries and peoples, where they send in the tanks and men with guns in if they really don't like the current government. No more than the US had any right to attack and then occupy Iraq back in the day.



  • Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭Art Fonzarelli


    The author provided evidence that intelligence claims of a planned Russian attack on Ukraine are flawed - that's the important bit. His prediction is just that, a prediction. Based on previous events. I don't know why you're having such a problem with this.

    Personally, I think it's leading up to new sanctions that will, again, attempt to stop Nordstream 2.




  • Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭Art Fonzarelli


    On cue...

    "The Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline to Germany was top of the list when US officials brainstormed potential sanctions that western countries could threaten against Russia to show President Vladimir Putin that any invasion of Ukraine would come at a heavy cost. Owned and built by Kremlin-controlled gas conglomerate Gazprom under the Baltic Sea, Nord Stream 2 is Europe’s most politically divisive infrastructure project. Moscow and Berlin have said it is a purely commercial enterprise that will safeguard European gas supplies. Kyiv, Washington and many EU countries say it will allow Russia to bypass gas pipelines through Ukraine, and give the Kremlin more leverage to use energy as a weapon against the EU. But with Russian troops deployed to the border with Ukraine and US intelligence warning of a planned invasion, the White House now wants Germany to commit to preventing it becoming operational if a Russian assault takes place. “If Vladimir Putin wants to see gas flow through that pipeline, he may not want to take the risk of invading Ukraine,” US national security adviser Jake Sullivan said following a call on Tuesday between Putin and US president Joe Biden."

    US et al intelligence brief compliant media on Russia's supposed build up to invasion. US will apply fresh sanctions targetting Russia's energy supremos and SWIFT, and Germany likely to at least suspend Nordstream 2, if there is an invasion. Why then would Russia invade? (I mean, why would they anyway?). They have previously stated, however, that they would get involved if the rebel region was under significant attack.

    If the intelligence briefings are flawed, what is the point of them? What does the US gain from generating the invasion narrative?



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    So a one man blog says its not going to happen ,

    Meanwhile 100,000 + russian troops Have been deployed to the region with numbers increasing on a weekly basis ,it's not just men its heavy artillery ,it's missiles and tens of thousands of vehicles , russsia has previously launched heavy artillery fire from inside their own borders to strike at Ukrainian military positions in Ukraine ,

    Remember russia aren't there ,they don't have 100,000 + soldiers massing on Ukraine's borders ,but the real story is NATO is going to invade russia , because they have a few small units training Ukrainian forces in Ukraine,



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  • Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭Art Fonzarelli


    What do you think Russia will gain from invading Ukraine? Or, is your reasoning that Putin - the shadowy, Moriarty-type, 7D chess playing figure - will invade because he's a bloodthirsty madman?

    What would the strategic advantage of a Russian invasion be for Russia?

    What would the strategic advantage of a Russian invasion be for the US?



This discussion has been closed.
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