Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

Options
1192193195197198308

Comments

  • Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,772 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

    No, but much less likely to happen, as opposed to if the commencement order had yet been signed (in which case all it would take would be political inertia to put it on the long-finger).



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,434 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    so, is this not coming till January? I was worried they might announce something in the budget



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,418 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    In a not surprising finding... MUP has no effect on crime:

    MINIMUM PRICING FOR alcohol had little impact on drink-related crime following its introduction in Scotland, a UK study has found.

    Researchers looked at trends in alcohol-related crime, disorder and public nuisance after minimum unit pricing (MUP) was introduced in May 2018.

    These issues were declining before MUP and its introduction had no statistically significant impact on the trajectory, they found.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/minimum-alcohol-pricing-had-little-impact-on-drink-related-crime-study-finds-5571802-Oct2021/

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 749 ✭✭✭Timistry


    Bump! Only a few weeks to go until all offers will be a thing of the past. STOCK UP!



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,883 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Not at the moment but there is political support for the idea there.

    Sinn Fein supported it in the Oireachtas and the DUP are historically a bit averse to "the devil's buttermilk".

    While they are making up their mind we can make our cross border pilgrimages.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I was at a party last night and a Gin and Tonic was 13 euros. 13 euros. And this was a nice hotel in kilkenny but it wasnt a wine bar in Dublin 4.

    The vintners don't need help. Some decent PR maybe. Prices like that would make one think twice about a night out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,964 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Is less people drinking a bad thing?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,768 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    Is getting pissed once or twice a bad thing for those of us who want to?

    This is another flipping stealth tax brought in under the guise of bettering our health.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,964 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    So, the slight increases are going to massively negatively affect getting pissed once or twice a week? You still can, it'll just be slightly more expensive. If the increases mean you can no longer afford to do it, then I'd be worrying if you currently can afford to do it...

    Yeah, it's another stealth tax, but do we expect anything less? Christ, fuel is far more important than the gargle, but we're rolling over and accepting those increases, but touch the holy alcohol and people lose their sh!t.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,768 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    Lol, I left out "a year", jesus I look like an awful wino now.


    It does make an awful difference when it comes to xmas drink deals, gifts, and bar/restaurant prices. Its total bollocks along with the sugar tax and other taxes that really only will affect those already suffering income wise.

    Fuel is massively important of course - id imagine it has its own thread though.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 13,964 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Most people would consider once or twice a week normal..... ANd if it's once/twice a year, well, it's not going to make a difference really overall. You're right, it will mainly affect those addicted to it. So possibly not a bad thing if they reduce their consumption. Yeah, it will result in others deciding alcohol is more important than food/bills/children, etc, but that's a that person problem...



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,768 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    The frequency for most people is beside the point. The point I am trying, and seemingly failing to make, is its just another crap tax inflicted on us for no really good reason. And we all know any funds raised will be used for nothing to do with alcohol related health services.

    Do you think it will stop any alcoholics from drinking?

    I think we may see a big increase in homemade booze and potentially see cases like this - https://www.rferl.org/a/bootleg-alcohol-poisoning-russia/31500809.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,883 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    It's not a tax.

    The extra money goes to the manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers.

    The only gain for the Revenue is the VAT.

    Even that is likely to be just displaced from other discretionary spending.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,768 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    Its a stealth tax as you have pointed out yourself. You and I will pay more to everyone and get less if it works as its designed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,883 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    We will definitely pay more and have no choice in the matter if we want to buy off sale drinks.

    When I said it's not a tax I meant it's not in the normal meaning of a tax.

    The Government are forcing the drinks trade to take the extra money from us and allowing them to keep the bulk of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    Alcohol is bad. Let's reward the people who make it and sell it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,197 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    For some

    For the likes of myself it's 5+ hours away.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭LawBoy2018


    It's quite a regressive measure, in that working class people will be disproportionally affected. It had little effect in Scotland and I would imagine it will have a similar success rate in Ireland.



  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Remember how USC was a temporary tax? 10 years later, I paid 900 euro in USC. last month. And then I got paid for my new job and got charge - 900 euro.

    You talk about slight increases. Do you think it will remain as a slight increase?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,964 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    I don't care for alcohol anymore, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,428 ✭✭✭macraignil


    I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

    1339 drug related deaths in Scotland in 2020 which was a 5% increase since 2019 according to this government publication. Not what I would call a success rate anyway.



  • Posts: 0 Axton Tall Chisel


    Addicts can not reduce their consumption. A fully addicted person will seek it any time day or night, but at times might go into dangerous medically unsupervised self-detoxes. It is a state of total denial and a parting from the realities of what’s going on in life. It’s an all or nothing scenario, and seems to be mostly genetically underscored, although to become an alcoholic you of course need access to it, and the cheaper it is the more accessible it is, especially to more meagre pockets. Starting young is another trigger factor, especially when the brain has more plasticity. Nobody sets out to become dependent. So slipping up the price gradually enough is probably the only way to allow those addicted to have the best essay access to it until/unless some time they make a decision for themselves to seek treatment.

    At the same time if it starts to look unaffordable to those starting out on life’s adult journey, people may look to other priorities or if they have alcohol addiction genes, then it might be delayed and maybe less damage done if they are to eventually recover. Pricing alcohol beyond the reach of moderation is no bad thing, although I could then see people taking to the home brew as was fashionable in the 70s/80s.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,197 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    At the same time if it starts to look unaffordable to those starting out on life’s adult journey, people may look to other priorities or if they have alcohol addiction genes, then it might be delayed and maybe less damage done if they are to eventually recover.

    This is it exactly.

    You not going to fix the current alcoholic, but if the entry price for the next generation is higher you have a better chance and changing behavior.

    But as I've always said around here, you have to get rid of the visibility of alcohol brands to, in the form of advertising and sponsorship bans.

    It worked with smoking.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    At the same time if it starts to look unaffordable to those starting out on life’s adult journey, people may look to other priorities or if they have alcohol addiction genes, then it might be delayed and maybe less damage done if they are to eventually recover. Pricing alcohol beyond the reach of moderation is no bad thing, although I could then see people taking to the home brew as was fashionable in the 70s/80s.

    Young teens willing to experiment with alcohol, often start with raiding the parents drinks cabinet. Those that don't, and those that have moved on from the drinks cabinet, usually go for the cheapest option. If it is priced out of reach for them, then you can bet that they are far more likely to pay the local dealer for the cheaper option to experiment with. Maybe start with hash or weed, and then some more experimentation with whatever is on offer. Unregulated, untested and illegal.

    While I don't disagree with everything you are saying, I think education and better rehab programs would have a better effect. Punishing the masses (incidentally - while rewarding the suppliers) for the effects on a few could be applied to anything. Driving, Cycling, Swimming etc. while they will get you fit, every time you do it again you are increasing your chances of getting hurt or dying from it.



  • Posts: 0 Axton Tall Chisel


    I am absolutely all on for education programs.

    And equally all on for easy-to-access rehab programs for those who have de used enough is enough. But with addiction the adage applies completely that you can bring a horse to water but cannot make him drink it. Maybe an unfortunate turn of phrase for alcoholism (but in latest medical parlance now known as Alcohol Use Disorder or abbreviated to AUD) but for a disease that isn’t caused by lack of willpower it would sure take a hell of a lot of it to get out on the good side.

    I would not at all mind if alcohol had a specific tax, a high one, rather than an increase in VAT which was ring-fenced for medical treatment and therapy. Now it is very difficult to be specific in every instance that a disease or condition were caused mainly by alcohol, but maybe the tax could be forwarded to mental health services in general who would be picking up after treatment for inadvertent detox DTs/seizures which are treated on an acute basis in general hospitals, only to have recurrence where the individual has not yet voluntarily engaged with medical services.

    lack of expedient availability of recovery services can only be (to some extent) off-putting to those who might be musing over the prospect of making use of them, and a great auld “excuse” for putting potential recovery on the very long finger. It’s the way the human mind works, find an exit strategy, and more-fold where there’s an addiction at play.



  • Posts: 0 Axton Tall Chisel


    I don’t think any of us want the greedy major vintners to the winners here.

    I’m in Romania atm, where it is impossible to get a drink out, at all. There’s not even mulled wine at the Christmas Markets. All alcohol consumed must be done before 8pm and with a major meal. I qualified for a beer upon ordering a T-bone steak last night. To put it in context, under 40% are vaccinated, so there is a panic on and the government here decided one safety measure was not to allow most people to get drunk.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,303 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    "I would not at all mind if alcohol had a specific tax, a high one,"

    It's called Excise Duty. Overall it hasn't increased much in a quarter of a century from 27th day of January, 1994, at the rate of £15.65 per hectolitre per cent. of alcohol in the beer (€19.87) to now when it's €22.55 per hectolitre per cent of alcohol in the beer compared to an EU minimum level of €0

    An increase of 13.5% over 25 years.

    Excluding VAT the effect of MUP is to force supermarket and distributors to take most of the rest of the retail price as pure profit.



  • Posts: 0 Axton Tall Chisel


    Yep, I’m thinking much more of a health related tax. I enjoy my pint/glass of wine etc, but have no quibble about having to pay for it if a decent amount goes towards medical services. I have witnessed enough of the destructive effects of alcoholism to know to know that services should be immediately available when somebody gets the notion to seek them out, as should all mental/physical health services.

    Vat, excise etc is one aspect, but to be fair to the taxpayer a percentage should go straight to health services.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,566 ✭✭✭dubrov


    So what is the latest on this?

    Is it a done deal already or do TDs still need to vote on it?



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 Axton Tall Chisel


    I’ve intervened specifically in 3 situations through course of my work relating to excessive alcohol consumption. One, a staff member I supervised who came into addiction, and could no longer function in their work as they were interfacing with public with a bottle of vodka under the desk and totally incapable of functioning: job was lost and it was a nemesis: very happy to report they recovered over a decade and have carved out a great career since. I intervened also when a new born baby was left to the care of a then 9 year old daughter when parents couldn’t be roused from drink, whom I caught up with many years later and with whom I enjoyed a great chat. The outcome was good in the long run, was told I had done the exact right thing when it was needed, but it makes for huge unpopularity at the outset.

    But really it’s only possible to intervene from the perspective of distance. That staff member or perhaps another adult member of the child’s family could not have thrown a spoke in successfully with authorities. One common denominator among the alcoholics I have known, they were all damned intelligent people, above average. Being intelligent or otherwise has zero connection with becoming addicted.



Advertisement