What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Oh lordy! You come on posting lies as facts, then turns out you don't understand the first thing about what you are complaining about. Embarrassing.

you do realise that nobody has to become a citizen? People can and do live here legally for years, never becoming Irish citizens. It's a choice.

Most people don't care to understand what's been going on. Oh, they'll vote in an election, or a referendum, but once that vote is submitted, most people are content to wash their hands of the whole thing. You say that integration happened through stealth, and then point to all the failed referendums... yeah, no. The way the EU has been going has been well known since the change from the EEC to the EU in 93. We all heard what was going on... if you were interested in knowing what was going on.

However, most people were aware that they had no real control over what was happening, considering that all Irish parties were gung-ho to suck up to the EU. People bitch and moan about the EU now, but are very quick to forget that Irish government(s) were involved throughout the whole process.

There is a general apathy in Ireland about sticking it to our political parties... instead, most people will lean back and allow them to do whatever they want, with little in the way of opposition. The banking crash brought that home to me. I knew it was always there in our society, but that crash really made me understand the apathy and lack of interest most Irish people have in forcing our politicians to put us first.

I'm not terribly inclined to pass the buck to the EU for what has happened. We're responsible. I've started to feel some hope over the last couple of years that we might see some active interest in EU affairs, and also, a movement against our dipshit political parties, but there's still a long way to go.

Here's an example. I've spoken earlier in the thread about how much time I've spent in the south of France. It's always been an area that I've gone throughout my teens and adult life, building up friendships and the like. Want to know a major difference between there and here? They're involved, and interested in what's happening within the EU. They care to be informed about current and future policy changes... even to the point of organising protests and speeches against proposed EU legislation, and making their interests known to their politicians. I'm not going to say that they're any more successful than Irish people are with their politicians.. but they show a serious interest in the EU. Whereas in Ireland, I'd be hardpressed to find any common discussion among most people I know. Oh there's a few, but they follow particular movements or agendas focusing entirely on those issues (farming, fishing, etc) as opposed to the macro issues such as immigration and integration....

So... no... I don't buy into this rage over the EU.. I've spent the last decade mostly living outside of the EU, with regular visits home.. and honestly, with the exception of a few choice areas, the EU has been very good to Ireland. Perhaps you need to be reminded what this country was like in the late 80s...? And leaving the EU now, would put us back there into the 80s.

Have a problem with the EU? Stick it to our political parties because they're the ones' at fault.

• have a period of 4 years residence in the State without an immigration permission, or 3 years in the case of those with children on the date the Scheme opens for applications
• be granted an immigration permission that allows for unrestricted access to the labour market
• have years of residence with that permission reckonable for the purposes of pursuing citizenship by way of naturalisation

Not disagreeing. Just plucking out the important part to reduce the confusion.

They'll be given the same rights and benefits available to any legal migrant. I still think it's terribly shortsighted and open to abuse, but i think people are exaggerating what's going on.

Personally, my only real issue is with this:

• have years of residence with that permission reckonable for the purposes of pursuing citizenship by way of naturalisation

I don't think anyone here illegally should be rewarded with such a thing.

These are the best bits:

Those with an existing Deportation Order can apply

Having convictions for minor offences will not, of itself, result in disqualification.

Immigration which involves people with the right skills and education to actively participate in our economy are a benefit. That's obvious enough. However, Ireland doesn't have any kind of substantial manufacturing or farming base, which is where the majority of unskilled labor ends up in. Even our hospitality sector is relatively small... oh it's experienced surges during the boom times, but invariably in normal periods, it shrinks considerably, even with government support.

Migration is generally a good thing when it follows the perspective of what is good for Ireland and Irish people. Not when it boils down to a focus on identity, or race. It's been covered numerous times on the thread, that even though the majority of our past immigration came from other predominately white nationalities, the government focus through advertising and general reports/statements, leans heavily towards those with darker skin tones. Which tend to come from regions where education is restricted or of low quality, resulting in migrants who need to be educated to upskill, but considering how ineffective re-education of migrants has been in Europe, it's doubtful that this government focus is particularly well thought out.

People like to ignore what's going on in the rest of the world. The M.East is pretty unstable right now, and there's no real indication that instability won't spread to other countries in the region. Russia is geared up to retake many of the former soviet territories, which will generate more refugees. Africa is suffering under the effects of climate change, continued social instability, and fragile economies.. all the while their population growth is set to explode in the near future. S.America is in the same situation, and China is set to implode economically, which will likely result in far more migration of it's peoples, should the CCP continue it's policy to allowing Chinese people passports.

When it comes to migration, we need to be careful and not rely too much on past immigration models. Yes, we're likely going to have continued immigration from other European nations, or Eastern Europe/Russia... but we're also likely to see a major jump in immigration from all around the world, most of whom will want entry to Germany, and Ireland remains one of the best ways to get a EU citizenship, or work visa.

I'm generally pro-immigration. I'm an expat, I love living/working abroad, and I like that other people can do the same in Ireland. It's a great change from the Ireland I grew up in, and I really do like most of the changes that have happened since due to exposure to foreign groups/ideas. However, I am anti-multiculturalism, in it's current form. I find it to be badly thought out, with little respect for the native/host population, and with little consideration for the negatives costs involved... for example, the creation of an underclass, a new poor within Irish society due to the foreigners who arrive without skills/education, or even the language skills to be successful here.

I didn't say they were. I pointed out a difference between the Irish and the French when it comes to activity within the EU.

But isn’t that boiling it down to identity, or race? Migration is good when it’s good for an economy, regardless of identity or race or host nations or any of the rest of it.

No, it's boiling it down to those with the skills/education required to be self-sustainable in Ireland. There are plenty of possible migrants who want to come to Ireland who are educated, and who also come from 3rd world nations. The problem is when the focus is on their race as opposed to what manner of life (without supports) they can have here when they arrive.

When you encourage low skilled workers, who are reliant on temporary work, you create a drain on that nations resources, because the very nature of low skilled work in an economy such as Ireland, means that the wages earned will be low, work security will be next to non-existent, etc. I understand the reference to focusing on the children to become productive, but there's no guarantee that they will, or that they will remain in Ireland on reaching their majority, besides the fact that it's a rather long investment with questionable returns. It would make more sense to start with people who can provide for themselves adequately, and also benefit from their children at a later stage.

If the parents become an underclass due to their lack of education or skills, in many cases, that's likely to extend to their children. That's been the problem with the welfare state system for decades... and while we have to deal with our own population, I don't see the logic in increasing that burden by bringing in foreign groups which align to the same problems. Problems that we still haven't found an effective solution to. It's one of the reasons the UK has so many problems with different ethnic groups being among the lowest income groups.

You’re still thinking according to the old model of immigration with regard to immigrants coming into a country and essentially being ignored and left to fend for themselves, which is why enclaves developed in other European cities (and they’re fairly well developed in Irish cities too).

That's the old model? What's the new model? not the theoretical one, mind.. but the one that works?

Enclaves will occur naturally as populations increase in size. That's going to happen regardless of education, skills, income, etc. People living abroad will gravitate towards others of their culture or race.. especially when they're a distinct minority. However as those populations increase, the enclaves will also grow in size because they provide a range of security, and opportunities that can't be found elsewhere. The only way to prevent enclaves from happening would be to ensure that foreign groups are spread out, either through policy, or through the availability of work/housing/etc.

Sure, one of the negatives of having to provide support for immigrants is the cost, but the long-term benefits to the economy as a whole, do tend to outweigh the initial cost of support.

Does it? I haven't seen any research proving that. If anything the costs shown in the UK and Germany suggest the opposite. How do we consider the long-term benefits as cancelling out the costs accrued? I suspect that those costs aren't being tallied up when people talk about the supposed benefits. And let's keep it clear here... we're not talking about migrants with decent education/skills before they arrived, but those without those advantages... so do you have any research showing the benefit of them? (I suspect there's no such research to be had, and this is just an assumption... no different than my assumption of the opposite).

Ahh well, I think we should be putting a greater value on citizenship, and not making it easier for people to obtain. If anything, we should be keeping citizenship reserved for those who meet the highest standards. Instead, emphasize the range of limited stay or renewable visas that migrants can avail of.

As for assimilation, that's gone. It's not on the books anymore, and has acquired something of a bad connotation. Just like nationalism has. Integration is the primary objective, although it's such a vague term, and I've never really encountered anyone who could pin down what it meant (or how it was achieved). In any case, there's no real expectation of foreigners to merge with Irish society... diversity is our strength, apparently.