What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Pure and utter nonsense? That would be the claim that I've said anything about your beliefs at all. Which I haven't. I've dealt only with what I have quoted. Your writing, your words, nothing to do with whatever is in your head.

It is incredibly naive to believe that the EU doesn't have the ability to influence one of it's smallest members, either by subtle means, or the more blatant threat of withholding access to EU support initiatives or investment. Large nations bully smaller nations all the time. The US is particularly good at it by withholding trade deals and/or enforcing trade tariffs on others' goods. Ireland is tied to the EU market... we're also deeply connected to the wide range of economic and social initiatives that comes from the EU. You seriously believe that holds no influence over Irish governments when dealing with suggestions from the EU? Really?

Good lord... you said yourself that the EU had suggested to the Irish government for this to happen.

Do I really have to go back to asking you for direct quotes of what I supposedly said? (I assume we're still talking about the discussion over the last few pages?)

You keep making accusations but when I ask for a direct quote, you switch. I give up. Fine. Whatever.

But klaz you’re putting them in there every time you say that it would be better to have people who could provide for themselves. They can’t do that if they’re not supported in being able to do so. It doesn’t matter whether they’re an immigrant or a native, that’s looking at the issue from an individual level, as opposed to looking at the issue from an economic level.

I have lived extensively abroad, and never once, have I received any support from the governments in those countries. I didn't need it, because I had the education and skills to obtain a work visa with a company or university which paid a salary which, more than, covered any costs I had. When I lost a job, I needed to leave the country or get another job, because there were no government supports.. and nobody expected there to be. Without those skills/education, I would have been refused both the jobs and the visas... and in most countries, they're rather quick to deport those who no longer have a valid visa (and unable to acquire a new one quickly).

It does matter that migrants have the skills/education so that they can provide for themselves. And referring to the natives is irrelevant to the discussion we're having since we're discussing immigration.

There is a demand for labour in low-skilled employment in a range of industries besides the traditional industries which required manual labour. Much of it is in large multinationals such as Amazon, Microsoft, Oracle, they don’t require transferable skills, just an ability to be able to follow training. It’s not rocket science. They are growing industries, and like any other industry - there are no guarantees of continuous employment. You’re asking for something there which you know doesn’t exist.

I'm asking for a reasonable expectation of being employed in any industry which provides an income that they can live on, without needing governmental/welfare supports.

The traditional industries tend to be low paid, because they're struggling, so there's little guarantee that such employees will remain able to pay for themselves, even if they're able to do so in the beginning. As such, it makes sense for these people to be on limited visas, and not have citizenship extended to them. I'm perfectly fine with low skilled workers being allowed into the country when there is work for them... but once that work dries up, then, they should be on a plane going elsewhere.

As for Amazon, Oracle, etc, are all tech companies. The only low skilled jobs tend to be in customer service, or sales, which as time goes by, increasingly expect applicants to have a university education. Even when you look at warehousing positions, increasingly there are expectations that potential workers have a variety of qualifications, such as forklift licenses, etc..... Unless, they have language skills, which is definitely possible, but again, these jobs tend to have a very high turnover. I did customer service for a few years while I went to College.. and it's not an area where most people stay in for long, unless you get into management, in which case, you'd need some form of formal education.

I know you have a degree in economics and that’s why I’m surprised like at times, because I’m thinking you must be aware of the concept of social mobility, so it’d be condescending for me to bring it up, but the whole point of it is to concentrate on educating the next generation so that they are in a better position to contribute to the economy than their parents were.

Nope. My degree is in Financial Management, and I have an MBA. Both courses had economics as a subject. I'd have the same awareness of economics as most people in business, I'm not any kind of expert on the subject. 😀 TBH Economic tended to bore me to tears once it went past the surface theory. So, don't worry about any kind condescension, because I do actually respect your views. I just disagree with you when it comes to immigration, and it's value to a nation under certain circumstances.

Are you more concerned about economic growth by which an economy prospers, or are you more concerned about Irish jobs for Irish children… if they want them. It’s unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that employers should be expected to give a hoot about a persons nationality or prioritise Irish people in employment.

Which I didn't suggest. If migrants are capable of acquiring employment before they arrive in Ireland, then, I'm entirely supportive of them. My concern is what happens when they no longer have work, but remain in Ireland, needing government support to live. As I said before, these people should be on limited visas... and not eligible for citizenship, until they have improved their situation. I'm not pushing for preferential treatment for Irish people over migrants in work availability. I'm pushing for harder screening of those who get to stay in Ireland.

I propose that we implement the same as Germany - invest and take the hit for a couple of years, in the interests of future stable economic prosperity, as opposed to the boom and bust cycles based upon a false economy. It’s obviously not a popular suggestion because it means increasing taxes, and that’s never an election winner.

But you're still talking about allowing in people who aren't capable of supporting themselves in the hope that they can be educated, and their children will also succeed, therefore discounting the investment/past costs of them being here. It's very humanitarian.. but I don't see it as being viable in the long run, considering just how many people want to leave the rest of the world and come to Europe. If we didn't live in a land with limited resources, I would wholeheartedly agree with such an initiative, but we don't. Resources are finite, and we should be doing our best to improve the lot of the native group, and those foreign born already here.... long before we consider extending our hands to others. Fix the serious problems within our own society and economies first.. Then look to help those outside.

EDIT: I couldn’t find the article that Wibbs posted earlier, but Merkel’s intentions were nothing to do with pushing multiculturalism. Safe to say she didn’t care much for the idea -

Merkel pushed multiculturalism because it justified her own desire to bring in cheap labor for the German economy. However, there were plenty of other politicians, activists, etc who were very happy to push the "moral" side of multiculturalism. After all, opposition to such a thing would make you something of a racist. We had more than a decade of that nonsense coming out of Europe.

That was just one example off the top of my head, and of course opinions are going to differ on how successful it was or wasn’t and the failures of it and so on, but you hardly needed your economics degree to make you aware of the dangers of putting all your eggs in the one basket like we’re doing in Ireland by focusing on fintech and pharmaceutical industries to maintain the illusion that we are a thriving economy while ignoring the reality of industries like the childcare sector which employs a significant proportion of immigrants on low pay and shìtty employment conditions while their employers charge eye-watering amounts and then crib about how they’re going out of business without government support, while at the same time parents are calling on government to increase childcare subsidies!

German reunification wasn't a success. The West is far stronger and more successful than the East, and should you ever talk to Germans themselves about it, you'll find a lot of resentment in the Western part of Germany for the taxes they've had to pay to keep inefficient services/businesses afloat in the East.

But yes, I agree that the Irish economy has too many eggs in one or two baskets, with an over reliance on multinationals. Ireland is doing very well on paper, but there are plenty of cracks showing throughout the economy, and within society itself. The continuous decline of the health service being one of the most obvious. Dunno where this all fits into our discussion though.

It’s a crazy situation that again, you hardly need your economics degree to tell you is unsustainable long-term! If you’re talking about drains on the economy, there are far greater drains an economy than either immigrants or children.

That's the third, fourth? time you've referred to the economics degree. As if having one would change anything, although I only said that I'd studied it previously.

The last line is typical of posters who claim "well, what about all the Irish people who do X, Y, Z?" and so we can't extend any criticism/limitations to others. The same with the logic that jumps to the extreme, as if we're discussing excluding all migrants... or children. Why separate children from the overall group? Come on. Tugging on the heart strings doesn't work on me.

There are far greater drains on the economy than migrants. TBF I didn't say that migration was a net loss. Immigration properly handled can be incredibly good for a country.. but you want to indulge in humanitarian gestures in addition to the healthy economic aspects of focusing on the skilled/educated.

I want the focus to be on the quality of the immigrant, based on their skills/education. So that we as a nation don't need to worry about them succeeding because the odds are stacked, in that they probably will be successful enough to consistently support themselves, and not end up at the bottom of our society. That's not about race or nationality. It's about being sustainable and not adding to the drain on our resources, so that we can look to fixing the other problems within our economy and society.. rather than borrowing trouble. We don't have the problems that other countries have with different ethnic groups because the numbers are still relatively low... and if we can be reasonably sure that migrants are able to provide for themselves and their families (as opposed to working on minimum wage or worse), then they'll be more likely to remain happy, and stable in Ireland. Compared to the UK, France or Germany, where migrants often end up at the bottom of society, and struggle to survive.

I don't mind you doing it, although, I'd point out the context matters. When you pose a statement or question referring to the native groups, or that immigrants should receive the same benefits of the natives... what am I supposed to say? Shouldn't I try to stick to your and my past posts, to stop the discussion from deviating so far from the original posting?

Going to cut this down, and Less repetition of viewpoints.

That’s what I’m suggesting when I suggest that we put structures in place to provide these supports.

I'm asking that people obtain the skills/education needed to migrate to a country, like Ireland, before they ever leave their own country... or acquire them elsewhere first. As such there is no need or expectation that Ireland provides supports or education to migrants, in the dubious attempt of uplifting them, while also supporting them. It makes more sense to have people prove themselves capable of that before they even arrive on our shores.

I’m not discounting the costs of them being here, I’m saying when they’re here, that they are provided with the same supports which are available to everyone

I didn't say that migrants should be treated differently to anyone else once they arrive in the country legally, except that they wouldn't be eligible for citizenship until they'd proven themselves worthy of it. Namely, that they have the skills/education, to increase the chance that they would remain employable in a self-sustainable manner.

It’s a ridiculous point to suggest that we have to consider how many people there are in the rest of the world that want to come to Europe.

Ridiculous to you, not so to me, considering your approach to immigration.

That sounds like an unreasonable expectation given that you can always point to any issue in society and say we have to fix this first before we allow in any more unskilled, uneducated immigrants. It’s silly, really.

No, it's simply inconvenient, and doesn't match with your expectations. There should always be greater demand for unskilled labor in an economy, than there is to meet that demand, because of the nature of those positions. They're low paid, usually temporary, often without job security, and we must take into account that once these migrants are here, and have gained the supports to stay here, they're not going to leave. Even when there are jobs available, many of these people will need state supplements on top of their wages, to maintain a basic lifestyle. That means should the market dry up, and jobs become scarce, they're reliant on state supports to live. Which results in a further drain on resources, and while you would like to believe that their children would make up the shortfall, I don't believe that to be the case.

you’d still point out that you want an example of where it’s been successful before you’ll concede that we should allow uneducated, unskilled immigrants into Ireland, or Europe, or wherever. It’s simply unreasonable.

It's not unreasonable to want a successful example that directly relates to immigration... you gave an example relating to the unification of Germans.

You’re reading far too much into the emphasis I placed on your degree in economics, or MBA in Financial Management at least. All I meant was that given you do have a background in economics, I expect you’d already know a lot of stuff that I shouldn’t really have to explicitly explain,

Did I ask you to explain them? You assumed that I must not have understood what you referred to, because I disagreed with you. As for reading too much into something, I do tend to notice the manner in which people write things, and when the tone changes...

I’m not separating children from any group either. I was speaking in the context of the point you had made about immigrants (at this stage do I still have to specify “uneducated, unskilled”? Bit tedious but I’ll do it if you insist!), and them being a drain on the economy,

Expecting that we need to fix the rest of Europe before you see fit to permit all the people in the world that want to enter Europe? That’s not a stretch or an extreme at all though? Come on now, you can’t expect that was supposed to be taken seriously?

That's somewhat disingenuous to suggest I'm demanding some kind of constant reminder of the difference.

No, I'm not expecting the problems within our society or economy to be fixed. However, the finite resources is relevant, considering the range of problems facing Irelands infrastructure, and economy... and I don't agree with your logic regarding immigration. More people increases the demands on existing systems, systems that are already struggling. When migrants are capable of acquiring decent jobs, they pay for themselves, and thus provide to the overall maintenance of the system. Migrants that struggle to pay for themselves, are more likely to need to access that support system.

And drop the comments about expecting to take things seriously or ideas being ridiculous/silly/whatever... because it's dismissive, and somewhat insulting. You started in the previous post, and have further applied it in this one. I've ignored it before, but do you really want me to start answering your posts in the same manner? You won't like it.

The reason you see migrants struggling at the bottom of the ladder in other countries is the same reason anyone else or any other group in society is at the bottom of the ladder struggling - it’s not because their Governments lack resources or anything else, it’s simply because nobody really gives a shìt, but they’re a handy excuse to bring up to counter any suggestions of doing anything for any other group as if we have to address social issues in series rather than in parallel, like is actually done in reality.

I see migrants struggling at the bottom because they're not prepared to live in a first world nation which doesn't have the range of unskilled labor positions that suit them. They come from societies where education is restricted or simply of such poor quality, and so they struggle to acquire positions which pay enough to provide for themselves, leaving them dependent on external sources to make up the difference. Most migrants with decent education/skills don't struggle to provide for themselves, and they're the people we should want coming and staying in Ireland. It's really that simple.

You might want to complicate the issue, but, I will return to the belief that most migrants should be on temporary visas with little expectation of staying permanently in Ireland (leaving on their own initiative or being deported when visa's end). Those migrants who remain, should already have the education to obtain employment that provides for themselves without government supports, and I welcome them with open arms. By all means, support those migrants who qualify to stay in Ireland the same as any other person qualified already to live in Ireland.... regardless of their past nationality, race, or whatever. However, I won't agree with the belief that we should encourage unskilled migrants to come to Ireland, give them the right to live here permanently, and then, add them to the existing group of people on the bottom of society due to their lack of ability to make an income, and improve their situation.

It's not people from different countries you have an issue with, just those from a lower 'social class' then yourself Klaz?

It's simply amazing how many times I have explained my objections... and then you come up with this drivel. Where did I talk about social class being important? There's no reference to social class in any of my posts regarding immigration.

You did state it before of course, was it something like.....children from lower socio economic groups will never amount anything? Will grow up exactly like their parents?

Nope. I have never said that children from lower socio-economic groups will never amount to anything... because I definitely don't believe that to be the case. But then, I suspect that's why you said "was it something like".

Something very dismissive and.insulting like that.

Actually, your own post is dismissive and insulting because you've sought to twist what was said just to score some imaginary points.

' people who have grown up in poverty or near to it, are more than likely to leap at a chance to suck at a free nipple if they can get away with it'

Yep, you're right, it was much worse the way you did actually say it.

It might be considered worse... but it was decidedly different to what you claimed before.

Are you going to prove or commit to debating to show that I was wrong in what I said in that post?