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JFK Assassination Autopsy Details Revealed After 55 Years

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Essentially you are bringing nothing to this conversation. Its like having a dinner party in which everybody brings food. Except for you, but you taste everybody's food to tell them its crap. Whilst preaching what it should be like based on another chefs work. You are just another lazy skeptic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,044 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    The assassination of Kennedy is one of the more significant events of the 21st century and one of the most studied. The historical consensus by historians, researchers, scholars and experts, with decades of research on the subject, is that LHO shot JFK, and acted alone in the assassination itself. It's not like historians are divided down the center on this, quite the opposite, it's overwhelming. To date there aren't many (if any) serious historians on the subject who maintain otherwise.

    You, as a layperson, apparently seem to think otherwise. Okay, but incredibly you have no credible alternative at all. So you are taking a denier's stance, the "this didn't happen but I don't know what did" approach, and as explained already, all this will turn into is an exercise whereby you get other posters to "prove" it to you while you can subjectively reject/nitpick anything and everything they say. Like I predicted, that's already started to happen. This is identical to the approach used by many conspiracy theorists, they "conjure" vague undetailed conspiracies via their incredulity and denial of the event. It's very easy to do, and since it's a nonsense approach, it will usually get the culprit kicked or warned on history forums (even if they try to mask it as "I'm just asking questions" and all that)

    Sorry if I am being the party-pooper for pointing out the obvious. If anyone wants to entertain it they can.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,469 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Is the consensus among historians and researchers that Oswald acted alone? Is it really?

    Also how do you define a “serious” historian?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,044 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Yup. I don't know if you have an interest in history, or frequent history forums, but the question pops up a fair bit. The consensus is pretty clear, also the conspiracies themselves are a footnote in any historical references.

    Quick overview and history of the swings and doubts surrounding the case

    https://www.history.com/news/why-the-public-stopped-believing-the-government-about-jfks-murder

    As for "serious", it doesn't have to be a historian, it could be a researcher, a writer, investigator, etc. Their work has to be critically considered by other experts on the field. So for those focusing on every detail of the assassination itself, or Oswald, or Ruby - the picture is fairly consistent. The conspiracies in contrast are highly inconsistent and all over the place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,469 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    I have an interest in history as a matter of fact. You have linked to an article about why a majority of the American public believe the JFK assassination was a conspiracy.

    What I was really after was something to support your assertion that an overwhelming majority of historians, experts, researchers etc believe Oswald acted alone, that there was no conspiracy.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,044 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    To highlight the below from my link

    "The legislation led to the most ambitious declassification effort in American history—more than five million documents in total. Over the next 25 years, the government fully released 88 percent of materials related to the assassination, and another 11 percent of partially redacted documents. As of October 2017, only one percent of documents remained classified."

    "There have been no shocking revelations in these documents; nothing to challenge the conclusions of the Warren Commission that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. Moreover, there have been no convincing alternative explanations of what took place in Dallas on November 22, 1963. At the same time, authors such as Gerald Posner (Case Closed) and Vincent Bugliosi (Reclaiming History) effectively refuted all the major conspiracy theories. Technology has also conspired against conspiracy. Digital recreations of the Zapruder film prove conclusively that all three shots fired at the Kennedy motorcade came from the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building. There were no second shooters or conspiracies; just Oswald and a high-powered rifle"

    This is the modern consensus. As mentioned, asking the Q on history forums produces the same response.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,841 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Was there aswell. Its an easier shot from behind. He has 300 metres or so before the car goes under the underpass. As opposed to 50 metres when the car was on Houston.

    His first shot was the toughest even though Kennedy was closest then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭323



    Been interested since Costner's movie. Visited the location in Dallas numerous times also, lived in Texas for a few years and was one of the places had to go to when had visitors from home.

    Personal thoughts

    While over there tried an identical rifle to what was allegedly used, as firearms go pretty poor. Totally agree with the numerous assessments that very few if anyone could have pulled off Oswald's alleged shots in that time with that rig.

    Then came the warren commission single bullet theory. Absolutely ridicules, love to know whatever those "experts" were smoking. Solid/FMJ bullets like that just don't deviate trajectory like that, five trajectory deviations, first two almost 90 degrees to end up in Connolly's leg. But assuming by some magic it could happen, to have done so and the bullet to end up in Connolly's leg in almost pristine condition, just does not happen.

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,841 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    There were no 90 degree deviations.

    This is entirely possible.




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,469 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Still nothing to support your claim that an overwhelming majority of historians, experts and researchers dismiss the idea of a conspiracy.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,044 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    I answered. You wrote: "Is the consensus among historians and researchers that Oswald acted alone? Is it really?"

    My answer is yes. As a frequenter of history forums, the question comes up and that's the feedback given: LHO as the sole shooter has consensus whereas the conspiracy theories are disjointed. Likewise opening up any credible reference to the event, that's the theory given, and the conspiracies are footnotes. With nearly 90% of 5 million documents released that hasn't changed, in fact, according to the link I provided the case has strengthened.

    So far there's no credible conspiracy theories in this thread, if you have one, feel free to present it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,469 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    You haven’t provided any evidence that an overwhelming majority of historians, experts and researchers believe that Oswald acted alone. Apart from reiterating the fact that you frequent history forums.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,044 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Yes I have, you have just subjectively decided not to accept it.

    Apart from LHO acting alone, what is the key theory according to you? The fact that you'll struggle with that or suggest "lots of theories" should answer your question. That or opening up any encyclopedia or general history reference on the subject and not seeing that theory (or theories) mentioned.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,469 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Unfortunately you do not apply the same standards to yourself in debate as you demand of others. Three times I have asked you for evidence that an overwhelming majority of historians, experts and researchers accept that Oswald acted alone and your replies have been a) you frequently visit history forums so it must be true or b) demanding an alternative theory from me.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,044 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Nope. You'd think on a conspiracy theory forum there would be discussion of the conspiracy. There's been 55 pages of this thread, where is a remotely coherent conspiracy presented?

    No one is doing it. All I see is the moon landing hoaxer approach. Whereby individuals deliberately don't spell out or support any conspiracy instead they sit on the sidelines asking people to "explain this" and "explain that" often based on nothing but incredulity. If someone wants to explain it to them, like The Nal is, that's fine. If you are "confused" about the historical consensus, this thread answers it for you. Your inability to point to a strong competing theory answers it for you. Your inability to find it in any historical reference or proactively get it from a reputable source answers it for you.

    At any point feel free to present what you think is a strong contender or well supported alternative. If not, it's just the BS exercise detailed above. Sorry to "spoil" the fun here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,469 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Thanks for the evidence.


    Oh wait it was just a rant. The type of thing you constantly lambast others for.

    Most of the historians who have written books on the Kennedy assassination conclude there was a conspiracy.

    Including 80% of the tenured academic historians who wrote books on the assassination in the decade from 2000.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Have a source for that Figure?

    And how does it compare against the number of accredited historians writing about Kennedy's life who don't attribute his death to a conspiracy.

    There is a disproportionate incentive to publish books about the assassination and for those books to suggest or hint at a conspiracy, so I don't think your number is a very good representation of the opinion of historians.

    Dohnjoe has provided a better indication of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,044 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Okay, but not one of them is strong enough to present in this thread.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,469 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    You are asking me for a source but not asking Dohnjoe for one. Why?

    Surely serious academic historians face a disproportionate risk in publishing books concluding a conspiracy was involved in JFK’s assassination rather than an incentive. Especially if, as Dohnjoe has claimed is true

    “To date there aren't many (if any) serious historians on the subject who maintain otherwise.”

    Also Dohnjoe is entirely wrong by claiming a previous poster is taking a “deniers stance” by questioning the lone gunman conclusion.

    “this didn't happen but I don't know what did"

    This is not a “deniers stance” as any agnostic will tell you.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,469 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Strong enough? A few posts ago you were implying no serious historians believed in a conspiracy being involved in the assassination of JFK.

    Now 80% tenured academic historians in a decade isn’t “strong” enough, while still avoiding backing up your own statement.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    He did provide a source.

    Why are you demanding one while not producing your own.


    And no I don't think it would be a disproportionate risk to publishing a book where someone suggests a conspiracy.

    Again because you provide no source or context for your claim we have no idea what the content of those books actually are or even if the people publishing them are as accredited as you claim.

    So for all we know it could be historians hinting a possibility there might be a conspiracy or it could be untrained crackpots claiming that it was aliens.


    Which are there more of and which sells better do you think? Books about ancient aliens or books about how aliens definatly didn't build the pyramids?

    If it's the former, does that indicate that there's a large percentage of historians who subscribe to the ancient aliens idea?


    And yes I agree with dohnjoes assessment that that is a deniers stance, not a neutral or agnostic one. Especially when a lot of the reasons people use to reject the accepted version of events is false, like the "magic bullet" canard a few posts back.


    Why do you believe that there hasn't been a solid alternative theory presented in the nearly 60 years since the event and with what you believe is a majority of serious historians looking into it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,469 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Just because you say it doesn’t mean it’s true.


    Where is the source for an “overwhelming” majority of historians etc believing there was no conspiracy surrounding the JFK assassination?


    The none/hardly any serious historian believing in a conspiracy is simply not true.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Here :

    And here:

    Just because you don't accept that as evidence doesn't mean others don't.


    Now could you provide the source for your claim that 80% of historians support a conspiracy theory.

    Could you also answer my question:

    Why do you believe that there hasn't been a solid alternative theory presented in the nearly 60 years since the event and with what you believe is a majority of serious historians looking into it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,469 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    There is no “evidence” in your above post.

    There are mentions of authors such as Gerald Posner who had the arrogance to write a book titled Case Closed before the most confidential documents relating to the case have been released.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    If you say so.

    So why haven't you produced your evidence or answered my question?


    I've answered yours directly and clearly and on the first try.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,044 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Yeah, moving on.

    You are suggesting 80% of historians believe something else occurred, okay, let's analyse what that is.

    A variety of conspiracies or just one? if variety, which is the key one? If just one, which is it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,841 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    A lot of these JFK historians are conspiracy theorists. Discredited ones aswell. Conspiracy sells. People like Jim Garrison, Mark Lane, Jim Marrs, James DiEugenio, Jerome Crosi. Ive read all these books. First few books I read were all conspiracy based. I had always assumed it was a conspiracy. Yet all easily refuted. All had agendas. All poor.

    But theres no point in loads of books agreeing with the Warren Commission conclusions.

    Best books I've read are Case Closed, Marina and Lee and Reclaiming History. Which took about 3 years to read.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,457 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    this is what johndoe said:

    My answer is yes. As a frequenter of history forums, the question comes up and that's the feedback given: LHO as the sole shooter has consensus whereas the conspiracy theories are disjointed. Likewise opening up any credible reference to the event, that's the theory given, and the conspiracies are footnotes. With nearly 90% of 5 million documents released that hasn't changed, in fact, according to the link I provided the case has strengthened.

    he then provided a link to the history channel website. first it is the history channel website singular. One website does not comprise a consensus. Second it is the history channel website. it is not an authority on ANYTHING. So, no, their link does not show a consensus.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Ok.

    So then what in the level of support for the idea of a conspiracy among actual historians? What is your source for this?

    Also if there is a majority of support among real historians, (up to 80% according to Safesurfer) why then is there no solid counter theories? Why is there no concensus among this majority about what the alternative is?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,457 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    I never claimed there was such support. I am not the one making a claim. I am the one asking that person to support their claim with a source. It is not on me to prove their claim is incorrect. that is how it should be and it should apply to both sides equally King Mob. Both sides should be held to the same standard or else it comes across as hypocrisy.



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