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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    It's another one of those urban construction legends. Like the old "they built a full metro station at the Mater, just need to turn the lights on, why are we changing the route now?" chestnut. It was a wall, folks, nothing more.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,877 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The biggest (only) delay so far has been in the internal planning phase. The initial proposals went for consultation in August 2020, with a target of getting the second consultation done by year end and a railway order application in the first half of 2021. That was never going to be achievable but still, a year to get to the second consultation was a phenomenal gap.

    The only way they're getting a railway order lodged in the first half of 2022 is if they ignore all the comments in the latest consultation...

    Post edited by Former Former Former on


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Tender out for ground investigation for the 38km section of Northern Line to be upgraded as part of the DART+ Coastal scheme

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/203670/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    When is this going to consultation? Dart+ Coastal, that is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,407 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    They're ordering enough rolling stock for it so not operating at those frequencies means letting trains sit idle at depots.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,407 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    There was never going to be a Metro North Station anywhere near Pearse. The stations were O'Connell Bridge and St Stephens Green.

    Are you talking about the clongriffin tracks that the Enterprise uses to bypass the DART platforms?



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    A moot point, but pretty sure Sam meant to refer to Dart Underground at Pearse



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    This post deserves a Pulitzer.

    Please send it in to the TII, or at least the letters page on the Irish Times.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,791 ✭✭✭crushproof


    Superb reply, thanks a bunch. I have a feeling everyone collectively bangs their heads against the wall every day when it comes to infrastructure in this country. All the while some dose in KPMG or PWC is being given another golden cheque for another consultation report about a slight tweak to the original DTO plan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,407 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Indeed lots of people banging their heads in frustration. I think we are past a tipping point where they outnumber the naysayers and knit pickers at least in the world of policy making and planning.

    There's also a bit of culture involved. There have been, in the past, and still today, a large number of people in official Ireland who's job and passion in life is finding reasons not to do things. A recent big example being how we simply could not use the phoenix park tunnel to improve commuter services for 40 years until one day we could.

    If you are interested have a look at the RTÉ archives for the videos of when the original DART was open in 1984. Every commentator was bemoaning that the new system would not generate an instant profit based on ticket sales, Ireland had voluntarily wrapped its self up in Thatcherism when it came to policy. While the Netherlands was deciding to turn away from American/British car centric schemes. Not surprising because Ireland was firmly tied to the UK and the anglosphere at the time.

    As we drift away from anglosphere culture at an ever increasing rate its clear that thinking is becoming ever more antiquated. Its only since the 1990s that you start seeing comparisons to cities not in the UK in reports compiled for transport projects. They actually used to reference USA cities in these reports back in the 70s, as they were considered the cultural and technological leading light for all things.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,650 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Yes indeed it was Dart Underground at Pearse. I was mis-remembering the various cancelled projects. There have been just too many.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,644 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Regardless, there were no prep-works done for it. The Pearse Street / Trinity Biomed entrance was going to happen anyway.

    You've fallen for mythology / simplistic attempts to talk stuff down.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,877 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    some level crossings could be closed now and fenced off. I'm not sure I there's a requirement to actually get planning for this

    Yes, you would absolutely need planning permission to close a level crossing. The crossings are the most contentious part of the proposals.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,650 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I fell for no mythology.

    I just travel through Pearse regularly, and the upgrade of the station coincided with the advance planning of the DU so I assumed they were related. No organisation would do a major upgrade of their station just before a major upgrade due to a very large project was about to happen - would they? Apparently they would.

    The same goes for the Clongriffin. IR had well developed plans for a rail link from Clongriffin over open fields to the airport. Then they upgrade the station for 4 platforms, and stop it halfway through with only three tracks laid after it became obvious that the airport link had been binned. Surely they would not invest in a project before it had been approved. Well, it appears they would.

    Now, I just added two and two on each occasion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,644 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The Trinity biomed entrance had to happen at that time, as that building was being built

    Clongriffin was built by a developer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    For anyone who got off at Pearse before that entrance was built, the crushes in the morning were dangerous. It was well overdue getting a new entrance. It also opened up the catchment area.

    I actually think more could be done in relation to access to city centre stations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,644 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Townsend Street entrance to Tara should be open longer and better signed at both platform and outside.

    Preston Street entrance to Connolly should be delivered ASAP



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭Brian CivilEng


    Irish Rail themselves mentioned that the new entrance at Pearse future proofed for DART Underground at a talk I attended for Engineers Ireland. However the amount of future proofing was basically that the tunnel for platform 1 to access the Trinity biomed entrance was also extended slightly further south to tie into and entrance planned for DART Underground. They were just giving an example of how they try to future proof. However despite the very interesting talk on a number of railway topics, the media ran with a "Work has begun on DART Underground" story.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    And don't forget access to Platform 10 at Heuston, or even access to Platform 1 from Military Road.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,644 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Well, P10 isn't going to come back in to use until Heuston West / P11 is built, and hopefully sense is seen and they put an entrance to Conyngham Road from the off. There is access to Clancy Quay proposed; and the yards/bus station redevelopment proposal would have new bridges to Conyngham Road.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 133 ✭✭DoctorPan




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,417 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    What's the plan for the diesel locomotive sheds at Connolly for Dart+West? I think there were plans for a new shed to be built with new housing & offices planned for the IFSC.



  • Registered Users Posts: 378 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Are any passing loops other than clongriffin currently being looked at.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    I saw this diagram on an earlier post, by the poster Peregrine:

    I've often felt that this proposed station should actually be called Glasnulla Junction - there's no question that it's suitable for an interchange of the proposed Dunboyne/Maynooth/PPT DART lines, but the number of locals who'll be getting on or or off is quite low, because of the quite low local population. Pretty much like Manulla.

    Building the metro through there is though, to my mind, a mistake. It would be much better to seek DART/metro interchanges in the area around Drumcondra, where the population is considerably higher, there is a much greater number of local businesses, and any such solutions would not involve the metro cannabilising the proposed LUAS line to Finglas, just about 400 metres away. A bit more difficult, probably, but I suggest better in the long term.

    But if Dublin is desperately determined to go ahead with the Glasnulla DART/metro proposal, why should it take some metro passenger three escalators just to get to the metro, as illustrated in the picture (presumably created by the poster, as it seems unlikely that such a sketch would have emerged from an official source).

    Enter the station, and, if necessary, buy your ticket at ground level (as in, e.g. Goodge Street station in London), then go down one level if you wish to get to the DART, or take another escalator two levels down if you wish to get to the metro. Glasnulla is not difficult, there's loads of space, and very few near neighbours. It really should be quite simple to give people a rapid escalator journey to the tracks they need to get go.

    Interchanging DART passengers will cross under the tracks, if necessary by using an escalator or elevator, if they wish to change DART; They will go down on another escalator or elevator if they want to go to the metro; or they can go up to the outside world on another escalator or elevator in the event that they want to do something in that neighbourhood.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,407 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Is there a denser population around drumcondra? Any evidence of this?

    Seems unlikely I can thing of a few apartment buildings around the proposed glasnevin Station on the phibsboro side but not sure if there's any near drumcondra. Also the two rail lines meet at the proposed glasnevin station so its a moot point, Drumcondra is two far from the other rail line.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Population density around Glasnevin isn't significantly lower than at Drumcondra, perhaps slightly, but not significantly.

    Engineering wise, Drumcondra is a worse place to put it, it either involves significantly more CPO activity, including those businesses you talk of, or shutting down a main road for a significant amount of time. Neither of those two options are possible. It's also possible to mine out the station, but seeing as they're avoiding that at all costs, including demolishing an apartment block in a housing crisis, then that's not happening either.

    That sketch of the station is an official one, I've seen it before. I believe that the "Maynooth line" and "Pedestrian Underpass" indicators have been added in though.

    Plenty of reasons for the number of escalators. They're required by the depth of the station, and the length of the station box. Longer escalators are a greater safety risk, and are not used if possible. If people don't like using the escalators, they can use the elevator, going from platform to platform without issue.

    Here's the population density of Manulla, by the way. As you can see, as with most things on this, you are comically wrong.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    The local population, and the population density, are much higher at Drumcondra than at Glasnevin Junction.

    To illustrate this, if you take the 7 electoral districts broadly around Glasnevin Junction (Botanic A, B and C, Cabra East A and B, Cabra West B and Inns Quay A), these have a total area of 4.759 sq.km, the total population is 24,760 and the density is 5,203 people per sq.km. (2016 census figures).

    Against this, if you take the 8 electoral districts broadly around a possible metro station at Drumcondra (Drumcondra South A, B and C, Botanic B and C, Inns Quay A, Ballybough B and Mountjoy B), these have a total area of 3.814 sq.km. (i.e. smaller than the above), a total population of 27,561 (i.e. higher than above) and a density of 7,226 per sq.km (i.e. around 40% higher than at Glasnevin Junction).



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,650 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: The Metrolink, as published, is the plan we are going with on the forum, unless the thread explicitly allows it. Metrolink is not going to move the line either to the east or west. Once built, the population density will solve itself.

    I agree their is a large population in Glasnevin that will never take the metro, wherever it is built.

    Please do not make suggestions that drag this and other threads off topic.

    Thank you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭MyLove4Satan


    Phisborough is literally next door to Glasnevin Junction. You talk as if people will only use the metro if the station has the same name as the street they live on.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,019 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Don't ever come to Berlin Hauptbahnhof whatever you do. It'll blow your mind:




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