The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

muffler · 06-12-2021 12:08pm

The council meeting today will discuss the mica issue.

NIMAN · 06-12-2021 12:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118275852#Comment_118275852

Re: your very last line.

Do you not think all the engineers have thought of that idea?

If it was as simple as that for most of the houses affected, why do you think the government scheme is costing this at €2.2bn?

givyjoe · 06-12-2021 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118275685#Comment_118275685

Banks are most certainly related parties. What do you think would happen if affected homeowners weren't given proper redress or one that didn't cover the cost of the problem. They'd be forced to walk away and hand the keys back.. what do you think would happen to banks faced with hundreds/thousands of defaults in quick succession? Defaults on properties with next to no value with little or no means for the bank to make their money back, or at best, take a massive hit to offload land with derelict/dangerous houses on it? And if not the banks, insurance companies? Same question applies to them, how on earth would they be able to absorb the losses arising from claims.. Then what about the company responsible, well as a limited company, there's no point in chasing them or their directors as they don't have billions in their back pocket. The only ones with the means to resolve the problem is the government/tax payer. Why oh why people keep going round and round in circles on this, is baffling.

Honestly, some people can't see past of the end of their own nose. Not a donegal resident, or homeowner.. yet.. but I'm continually astounded by the shortsighted, god awful and callous posts in here from some people. It's borderline disturbing.

dzer2 · 06-12-2021 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118276812#Comment_118276812

I have no idea what the engineers have thought about. I do know that anything they do is expensive and also the are a paid piper in this.

I am suggesting that at least try something. When cladding with stone walls are treated for damp proof, then insulation and then stone.

ahusband · 07-12-2021 1:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118277850#Comment_118277850

There is no such thing as handing the keys back and walking away as there might be in other countries, but not here, the outstanding debt after the sale of the property is still the person / persons to deal with.

They are of course related, in that they have a vested interest in their investment, but to blame the banks for the problem is little short of insanity.

07-12-2021 1:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118277874#Comment_118277874

The inside walls are crumbling too though which suggests damp proofing would not work.

ahusband · 07-12-2021 1:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118275906#Comment_118275906

50 % of the cost to replace would suggest it was cheap relative to its cost to replace.

I did say that you bought it cheaply, which given the cost to replace (a cost which does not include the land) you did indeed buy it cheaply.

Compare the cost of buying the site and doing a build from scratch, come back and tell me which is cheaper.

I've friends who bought in Donegal and relocated there specifically because the houses were cheaper, they were definitely happy they bought cheaply.

ahusband · 07-12-2021 2:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118275808#Comment_118275808

You borrow money, you pay interest on the outstanding balance, there is no reason at all that I would mention that as that is simply how credit works.

They are charging interest on the outstanding balance of the loan, the actual value of the asset is irrelevant in the calculation of the interest due with the possible exception of a tracker / rate based on the LTV of the loan, but this would only serve to increase the interest applied due to the higher LTV ratio.

Unless you have audited the books of the banks you have no idea how they are treating the mortgages on their books, they may well be classed as impaired loans, the assertion that people have difficulty in obtaining additional credit on them would suggest that to be the case.

Penfailed · 07-12-2021 7:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281541#Comment_118281541

I repeat, my house was not cheap and I didn't buy it cheaply.

givyjoe · 07-12-2021 11:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281492#Comment_118281492

You specifically said banks are unrelated parties.. they quite clearly are a related party. I dont recall seeing anyone 'blaming' banks. They should be just as worried as the homeowners, as they have a charge over an essentially worthless asset. With no redress, families would obviously be eventually forced into defaulting on the mortgage. You can pretend that wouldn't be the case if you wish, but it's a choice many would be forced to make, i.e. either rent a liveable/safe home, or continue to pay a mortgage on their current crumbling/unsafe house.

dzer2 · 07-12-2021 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281511#Comment_118281511

This is the thing if the blocks are going to crumble anyway why is anyone talking about outleaf replacement.

If the houses are f**Ked anyway, the best and cheapest is to knock them and rebuild. Don't bother with fixtures and fittings. Let the owners take out what they want to keep.

Has anyone yet have the foundations condemned

RandomViewer · 07-12-2021 7:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284002#Comment_118284002

Good chance the foundations could be fine, the sheer amount of concrete should make them fairly sound, dont think there were any mention of subsidence

Furze99 · 07-12-2021 8:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281511#Comment_118281511

Can you explain why the inside leaf of a cavity wall or interior load bearing or partition block walls would be crumbling. The issue with 'mica' as I understand it, is that dampness - water - rain is what causes the material to degrade. Any interior leaf or interior wall should be essentially dry..

07-12-2021 8:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286300#Comment_118286300

No-one actually knows why. It is not certain if it's dampness or the freeze thaw action of winter. But there is reports of inside walls showing damage, which shouldn't be damp or frozen...

You'll love this - it could be argued that it might not even be mica behind all this! I understand that it has not actually been definitively proven. Who's to say it is not some other mineral in the gravel.

Penfailed · 07-12-2021 9:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286300#Comment_118286300

I have no idea why my interior walls are cracking. The kitchen and utility room are particularly bad. The fact that the reveals around the windows and doors have big gaps and cracks around them means that the chances are that there's water ingress into the exterior of the interior wall...if you know what I mean?

malinheader · 07-12-2021 9:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286614#Comment_118286614

Was your cavities pumped with insulation by any chance

dzer2 · 07-12-2021 10:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286614#Comment_118286614

Do you know what ties were used between the outer and inner leafs and was the damp proofing around the windows properly installed.

jj880 · 07-12-2021 10:31pm

There is also pyrrhotite coming back in peoples tests from the UK labs which reacts to oxidation and causes all blockwork and foundations to weaken. Yet here we have a scheme and a statutory instrument SI 25 (the current scheme) designed for mica only with the government taking everything in house to the housing agency and ignoring any talk of testing foundations or testing for pyrrhotite. This is deliberate to push the cheapest fix possible. I really dont understand it myself. Its going to cost more in the long run when houses eventually need demolished anyway. Its political nonsense as usual. Kick as many demolitions (including foundations) as possible down the road 10 years and its the next governments problem.

jj880 · 07-12-2021 10:33pm

Also a good article about the proposed "enhanced" scheme coming out in the Inish Times tomorrow.

If it appears on donegallive.ie I will post it here.

RandomViewer · 07-12-2021 11:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286300#Comment_118286300

Nowhere near enough cement in the blocks either,

NIMAN · 08-12-2021 12:15am

It was often thought that the big freeze of 2010/11 was to blame for a lot of the Mica cracking in houses, and thats why freeze/thaw is often stated as a reason.

However, the fact that houses built in the years after the 'big freeze' are showing the same cracking would maybe point to just general moisture being an issue? (I do appreciate we have had smaller freeze/thaw times since the big one).

So if it is just moisture that is a potential cause, surely foundations would be liable to failure too, due to their location and the fact that they are surrounded by damp ground??

ahusband · 08-12-2021 12:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118282740#Comment_118282740

Post 2419 Niman says:

"I'm not happy that anyone has to pay for this. The people that should be are the block manufacturers, the insurance companies and the banks"

The banks are unrelated when it comes to those that are to blame, they are a stakeholder in the asset yes, but not a party that the cost of the same should automatically be landed upon as Niman suggested.

ahusband · 08-12-2021 1:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281888#Comment_118281888

Depends on how you look at it, purchase price was cheap vs the rebuild cost and insurable value.

Not sure why your're getting wound up about it.

A neighbor of mine paid twice as much as me for their house, about two years after i bought mine, both the same houses, I've no issue saying I bought mine cheap in comparison.

jj880 · 08-12-2021 1:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287917#Comment_118287917

They have to be tested. What is stated in the government in their enhanced scheme is a visual assessment. If your house is bad enough visually you might actually get some testing done but no foundations. Its the first test that should be done but that would rule out the cheap outer leaf fixes the government want.

jj880 · 08-12-2021 1:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288123#Comment_118288123

How is buying your house at a low price years ago comparable to being forced to rebuild your house for a higher cost at a future date?

You had a choice when to buy. Home owners with defective blocks are being forced into a rebuild at a time when the cost is high.

This is obvious yet you persist with ridiculous comparisons.

Penfailed · 08-12-2021 6:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286966#Comment_118286966

No idea to be honest.

Penfailed · 08-12-2021 6:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287015#Comment_118287015

Again, I've no idea. The house was built when I bought it. I played no part in the building process and bought through an estate agent.

Penfailed · 08-12-2021 7:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288058#Comment_118288058

You've wrongly attributed that post.

Penfailed · 08-12-2021 7:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288123#Comment_118288123

It's all comparable. It makes no sense to make the comparison though. My house was not cheap. I'm not getting overly wound up but your OP insinuates that I bought a cheap, therefore inferior, with corners cut house.

dzer2 · 08-12-2021 7:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288151#Comment_118288151

Down here there are dedicated block quarries, the concrete for foundations and general work come from a different place. Blocklayers want sand from a specific place also. I know all block laying sand in Waterford is brought a long distance. I even know a contractor in Dublin that buys his sand from Carlow

malinheader · 08-12-2021 7:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288402#Comment_118288402

Only reason I was asking is because a neighbour beside me has very bad cracks internally as well as outside. A couple of people have suggested to him that once the water is blown through the cracks outside it wets the beads carrying the moisture to the inside blocks.

Penfailed · 08-12-2021 9:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288415#Comment_118288415

In this instance, to the best of my knowledge, the aggregate for the blocks is the same aggregate used for the concrete foundations.

Penfailed · 08-12-2021 9:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288428#Comment_118288428

How would I find out?

malinheader · 08-12-2021 9:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288535#Comment_118288535

I would think that the easiest way would be to find out who built the houses and enquire from them. Sometimes you can find traces of the small polystyrene beads in around outside service boxes but unless you're fairly familiar with construction or trades I would ask a tradesman to take a look. Also any bad wide cracks inside or out should of exposed the beads, there a nightmare to gather up if start to spill out. Nothing important for you to worry about at this stage, I just thought that might explain the bad cracks inside.

SBourgaize · 08-12-2021 11:28am

In your attic, specifically where the chimney meets the wall is a great place to spot them too. We can see ours there where some concrete has crumbled away.

jj880 · 08-12-2021 3:46pm

Engineer Ambrose McCloskey on the new "enhanced" scheme:

https://www.donegallive.ie/news/local-news/705673/new-scheme-worse-for-homeowners-chartered-engineer.html

jj880 · 08-12-2021 7:05pm

ambrose Issues-with-Defective-Block-Schem1.pdf

Here is Ambrose McCloskey's full piece taken from the 100% redress group. A lot of it was cut for the Donegal Live article. This government are a disgrace.

muffler · 08-12-2021 7:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118289078#Comment_118289078

Beads shouldnt show at that point. You might want to have a better look at that or if you dont feel confident enough get someone who is knowledgeable in that area.

dzer2 · 08-12-2021 9:41pm

The best place is in the electricity panel at the meter. Where the pipe that brings the cable in enters the box

ahusband · 09-12-2021 12:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288408#Comment_118288408

Not my intention, I'll apologise for that.

RandomViewer · 11-12-2021 12:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288531#Comment_118288531

Thing with foundation is that people will notice if it takes 3 days to set, we've no idea how long the blocks took

dzer2 · 11-12-2021 1:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118303826#Comment_118303826

Any engineer worth their salt would have got a cube test done on the foundation mix

Penfailed · 13-12-2021 12:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118304908#Comment_118304908

Which would've proved nothing. Cube tests give 7 day and 28 day strengths. Mica is a deleterious material. It wouldn't have affected the results of the cube tests for the founds.

Penfailed · 13-12-2021 12:32am

I've been accepted onto the multi-party legal case but I'm not one of the lead cases going forward.

dzer2 · 13-12-2021 9:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118312693#Comment_118312693

Nearly sure it would show the foundations weren't right. As the concrete would have taken too long to dry with Mica in them. And not have reached the required strength. Have seen a case where excess water was added show up in the test.

Penfailed · 13-12-2021 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118313183#Comment_118313183

Nearly sure you are wrong. The presence of mica in the aggregate would have no bearing on the curing time of the concrete.

Penfailed · 22-12-2021 11:21am

I received an email yesterday from DCC. Everything is now on hold. They won't accept my confirmation of eligibility onto the scheme whilst they are working through the detail with the department. This means that I'm not getting my 90% back on the spend to date for the foreseeable future. As far as I know, everyone that was pending a decision is in the same boat. I've been out that money for over a year now...

jj880 · 22-12-2021 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118360015#Comment_118360015

So DCC downing tools and handing everything off to the Housing Agency before the new scheme is even ready.

The least they could do is refund the 90% and roll any coring/engineer results from home owners into the Housing Agency's scheme.

You've been waiting a year and DCC choose to send an email like this to people 4 days before Christmas. What difference would another week or 2 make?

Disgraceful.

muffler · 22-12-2021 3:11pm

The council get the funding from central government so I'm guessing that has probably dried up.

DrPhilG · 22-12-2021 4:16pm

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2021/1221/1268071-mica-donegal/

The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

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