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Will you be taking a booster?

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    It's not just about deaths - it's about keeping hospitals open (so that necessary surgeries, like the one described earlier in the thread, aren't delayed) and not just flooded with unvaccinated or unboosted Covid sufferers.

    "Flooded" Jaysus you do love the hyperbole. Over the last few months around half of all patients in hospitial with covid were vaccinated and wait and see in a few months a fair percentage will be boosted too. Rinse and repeat. Even if every single person in the country were vaccinated around half of the current numbers would be in hospital with this pox. Would the hospitals magically be open for business as normal then? We've had serious strain on the health service and necessary surgeries being cancelled at times of overload before and long before covid. Unless you could move all the covid patients to one "fever" hospital, we'd still be seeing delays with the fully vaccinated and boosted. A nation of five milllion that's concerned about a thousand odd people in hospitals and ICUs across the country is a nation with a very strained health service. Covid just pointed it out. Again.

    And here's another hype merchant. You do understand that the risks of serious illness and death are monumentally tiny for children, poverty stricken or not? Then again wheeling out the third world kids angle is good for the hyperbole of sympathy and is usually applicable to most diseases, but not covid.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,557 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    The article from CNN I linked to explains why the problem isn't getting vaccines to poverty stricken countries. It's vaccinations. Poverty stricken countries lack infrastructure and expertise, neither of those is exportable.

    Personally I'd think of donating to the WHO who can help. But, sending a pallet of doses to the 3d world is ineffective. Ireland doing so is just me-tooism, can't be seen to not be just at all times.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,557 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose



    "Flooded" Jaysus you do love the hyperbole. Over the last few months around half of all patients in hospitial with covid were vaccinated and wait and see in a few months a fair percentage will be boosted too. Rinse and repeat. Even if every single person in the country were vaccinated around half of the current numbers would be in hospital with this pox. Would the hospitals magically be open for business as normal then? We've had serious strain on the health service and necessary surgeries being cancelled at times of overload before and long before covid. Unless you could move all the covid patients to one "fever" hospital, we'd still be seeing delays with the fully vaccinated and boosted. A nation of five milllion that's concerned about a thousand odd people in hospitals and ICUs across the country is a nation with a very strained health service. Covid just pointed it out. Again.

    In Scandinavia, I believe most of the hospital admissions are blonde. Should they be sent to fever hospitals?


    The preceding was a joke. Half of the hospital admissions from unvaccinated when something like 97% of Ireland has been vaccinated says the unvaccinated are wildly overrepresented in hospital and ICU. Also you conveniently left out 'in hospital' versus 'in a hospital ICU'. Some data for you https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/vaccinationstatusreports/Vaccination%20status%20of%20confirmed%20COVID-19%20cases%20in%20Ireland%20Week%2046.pdf



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,084 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    @Wibbs wrote

    It's "if" and "may". There was no talk of any "stated 6/9 month cycle of the first vaccine". This wasn't "all stated from day one of the covid 19 vaccine use" as that poster so confidently claimed.

    I wasn't replying to that post, nor was I dealing with your broader point. I'm simply pointing out that your claim that

    Nobody was talking about 6/9 month cycles of the vaccines when they were first rolled out.

    ...is misleading, and plays into the theme pushed by the vaccine-weary that this is all some kind of con. The Irish Times article from November 2020 (one month before the rollout started) has the exact headline "Covid-19: Booster doses may be needed for vaccine, Nphet told" and the article contains the following:

    Regular boosters may be needed for a vaccine against Covid-19 due to people’s antibody response to the disease declining over time...Evidence from 22 studies suggests IgG antibody levels (the most common antibody in the blood) are sustained for at least two months after infection and for up to six months in some people. ...Hiqa said its findings suggest immunity may not be long-term and if vaccination results in a similar response, “consideration may be given to the need for repeat of ‘booster’ doses”

    Short of having a time machine, it's hard to see how HIQA could have been clearer about the strong possibility of boosters, and the IT actually boosted the prominence of the booster part by putting that in their headline.

    Now, you can hairsplit about whether the exact phrase was stated 6/9 month cycle or not, and I could respond by hairsplitting that the current "talk" from those advocating boosters is not about "cycles" but of one booster at a time and seeing how it goes (the "this will never end" talk is from those opposed to boosters), but that's not really getting us anywhere.

    Anyway, enough words on one minor gripe.



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I’ll wait and see. It could be different in January and also I made some enquiries with pharmacies.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Half of the hospital admissions from unvaccinated when something like 97% of Ireland has been vaccinated says the unvaccinated are wildly overrepresented in hospital and ICU.

    I agree. Vaccines have massively reduced serious illness and death. My point is that even if 100% of Irish people were vaccinated we'd still have around half the numbers in hospitals that we have today. Mostly the very old or already very unwell. We'd still be hearing about delays. Pre covid it was flu, penumonia, winter vomiting bugs being blamed for trolley traffic jams in our hospitals. Christmas 2019 had the system under strain before covid came anywhere near us.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,571 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Yeah I probably will but think I'll get it in one of the local pharmacies this time round.



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    I'd advise getting it sooner if you can't afford to be feeling under par recovering from the immunization in January.



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I know I almost certainly had COVID very early in the outbreak. I had all the symptoms, but put it down to flu and spent two weeks basically bed ridden. Lungs were crackling like Rice Krispy sounds when I breathed. Fever. Aches all over, every joint hurt and was going out of breath for months after and I lost about a stone in weight and just looked rundown.

    That was mid-January 2020 when it wasn’t officially here. I had also been vaccinated against flu, because I have vulnerable relatives I visit frequently, so it just seemed unlikely.

    It also ran though everyone who had been together at a party after Xmas - we all had similarly dramatic “flu” - my dad being diagnosed with viral pneumonia twice during it and put on steroids and tamiflu etc - he’s still coughing almost two years later - had CT scans and bronchoscopy done twice, which just shows very slight scarring and nothing else, but he’s coughing heavily ever since.

    We think it likely came into the house through travel. There were multiple trips though Heathrow, Paris CDG and Schiphol and also one family member was at a big international event and there’s evidence it was in Paris as far back as that November.

    I continued to just accept it was flu and didn’t get an antibody test until almost August but that showed as negative, so I guess if anything it just proves that antibodies don’t stay in your system.

    At this stage, even my now retired GP accepts that it was very likely covid and not flu.

    Also after that experience, absolutely no way I would skip the booster. I want it asap.



  • Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭hunter2000


    They will back pedal very quickly on that 9 month. The interval of dosing is being reduced.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭Azhrei


    Hell yes. Had it done two weeks ago.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    Yeah, I would (and actually I got the appointment I couldn't follow as I am out of Ireland) ... but when it suits my travel plans !

    Meanwhile, can add that I had my antibodies tested (while abroad) - baseline was 2000 1 month after second dose, and 6 months later I got 400 left

    // medical staff at the lab were telling me they've seen a 80 yo with 20000 after second dose, and that themselves (seemed 15 years younger than me) have about 300 now, 2 months after covid.

    If I had been close to zero, I'd have rushed into getting the booster, now I'll wing till it after Xmas (I'd be 7 months past second dose then)



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I remember that 2020 new year's dose and people wondering if it was covid afterwards. I caught it from a mate of mine who'd been on a Christmas holiday with his family in the Canaries. Bit of a sniffle and cough for a week, very mild, grand. He was hit harder by it and took weeks to clear it. His wife was hit really badly and was on steroids for her cough at one point. One of his kids was a bit meh for a few days, the others nada. His kids had brought flu into the house the previous November and they all came down with that and I also knew people who'd had the flu vaccine that year getting it too. Also I'm one of those who never gets the flu(IIRC something like 10% don't. My dad was the same as me), though have been regularly exposed to and looked after people who've had it, even tested positive for the swine variety, but was totally asymptomatic. I didn't catch the 2019 flu and didn't expect to, but did catch that dose.

    However I very much doubt it was covid. While there had been an upswing in hospital admissions in late 2019 on the back of the seasonal flu, at no point were hospitals close to being overwhelmed and there was no upswing in the New Year. When confirmed covid hit anywhere this extra caseload was very noticeable. If China had said nothing until May of 2020 it would have been blatently obvious something new was happening when actual covid hit. Symptoms of respiratory viruses tend to be very similar. Fever, headache, sore throat, blocked nose, cough, fever, aches and fatigue. Hell the early symptoms of smallpox, ebola and other nasties can be similar. Early variant Covid symptoms like loss of taste and smell and no blocked nose and sneezes and extreme breathlessness for the majority were not in play, or certainly not reported as a feature with the New Year's dose. Another thing that would have happened if that had been covid; all those who caught it would have had natural resistance to covid for at least a few months after it showed up. Yet when confirmed covid did hit only a few months later people started to get sick, some very sick and I'd bet a fair number had caught the New Year's dose.

    Though I would not be surprised to discover covid was around in November 2019 and some cases in the West might have happened, it really doesn't seem to have actually been in the population to the point of being recognised nearly that early. I suspect the 2020 new year's dose was another non covid, non flu winter "bug going around", that just happened to show up just before covid.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Shilock


    Can you get antibodies tested here in Ireland for covid ?

    I know a few people who were talking about it, wouldn't it be handy if you had them and every 6 months get a test to see how many you have.



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It was in circulation in France in 2019:

    Article from Le Monde : https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2021/02/10/le-sars-cov-2-circulait-sans-doute-en-france-des-novembre-2019_6069431_3244.html

    Unless Irish people had some kind of magic bioshield, or never interacted with the continent at all - neither of which is remotely possible and my household does a lot of European and international travel, then it’s highly likely it was already here and it was already in the U.K. and probably quite a few places before it exploded.

    It started to do serious damage and show up as a major problem when it worked it’s way into very vulnerable populations - mostly care homes and the elderly.

    We only began looking for it in about February 2020 and even then getting a test wasn’t easy. It was triaged. So unless you needed to be hospitalised in the early days, it’s highly unlikely you’d have been detected as having it and also it’s very likely it would have been categorised as unexplained viral pneumonia, which is what my dad was diagnosed with and just given tamiflu, antibiotics and steroids by his GP as his O2 levels were low - got categorised as “walking pneumonia” Took him about 3 months to get right again and I suspect the tamiflu did nothing.

    My guess is if it was in France in November it was here, certainly by December. It just was likely circulating amongst a generally younger, healthier cohort.

    I really don’t get this attitude that anyone who had this weird and dire respiratory illness in early 2020 is dismissed as somehow imagining it. It’s patronising at best and almost gaslighting at worst.

    A significant number of people were reporting being extremely sick and it was dismissed as nonsense by everyone from healthcare professionals to posters online despite the fact it’s very likely it was early cases of COVID and that is backed up by French and other look back research on swabs.

    There has been way too much magical thinking in this pandemic. Between “schools are safe.. schools are safe..” mantras, when they clearly couldn’t be. The refusal to recognise it was airborne. Then the notion in the early days that it was far away and couldn’t possibly spread beyond Asia … no it’s only in Italy … no Spain… France … oh crap! it’s here.

    It’s been a case of slow and idiotic responses and then over compensating reactions.

    Our collective response has been a lot of head-in-sand exceptionalism and I just don’t get it. I mean, you can’t hide from a virus by ducking behind the sofa and we are deeply interconnected as a single community by mass, frequent air transport.



  • Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭hunter2000


    The passport is EU, you will loose it if you won’t keep up with the dosing programme.



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Emmm. It really, really isn’t!

    Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why a bunch of centre right, hugely pro business, pro trade parties (many of whom are also utterly obsessed with pubs) would suddenly want to impose restrictions on socialising, pubs and all of those things?

    Creating a conspiracy like a “new world order” would be impossible even from a practical point of view. You’re talking about a government made up of multiple parties and people who can’t even keep anything to themselves without leaking, and it’s a proportional representation democracy that most of the time has weak executive powers and, quite frankly, would struggle to organise a pi$$ up in a brewery, never mind a grand all encompassing conspiracy.

    The EU is just 27 of those systems bolted loosely together.

    As for China, the virus caused chaos for it domestically and has undermined the global trade it so depends upon for growth. So that conspiracy theory goes no where either.

    Unfortunately, this is just one of those hot messes and we are dealing with what is almost certainly a rather nasty bat virus that is crudely adapting itself to living in our cells…

    We are just somewhat taken aback because we had a bit of a golden age, at least in the developed world, where threats of airborne pathogens haven’t been an issue for us for decades and we assumed we had an instant, off the shelf, technological cure for everything.

    If nothing else, the last 2 years might have injured our ego and arrogance. Nature is still far, far more powerful than we are and we exist on a knife edge.

    All that can be done is to fly by the seat of our pants, adapt and use what technologies we have and solve this problem.

    If you want to believe it to be some grand conspiracy, I think tbh you’re burying your head in the sand and I think it’s about being unable or unwilling to accept that we live in a very precarious world, where a microscopic organism, that doesn’t even have its own cells could, without even being self aware, do enormous damage to a complex and highly evolved civilisation. It’s happened and it’ll happen again.

    In short: boosters are the best we’ve got right now.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    My guess is if it was in France in November

    There was a confirmed case of a French airport worker in december, circulating in the community is another thing. The study you referred to had a few issues which the authors acknowledged. There was an Italian study that reckoned it could have been there even earlier in september. Again the wider research world isn't nearly so sure at all.

    It was here, certainly by December. It just was likely circulating amongst a generally younger, healthier cohort.

    Slight problem with that "certain" theory: That would have it here and in France(and Italy) by Christmas and New Years in some numbers, given pretty much everyone I know came down with the Xmas/New Years dose at the time. Christmas and New Years are about the worst, or best if you're a virus, time of the year for transmission and between different age "cohorts". The time of the year when the younger and healthier are most likely to be going to older relatives houses, or having them over to their houses, or visiting elderly rellies in care homes. Never mind Xmas parties and going out and about in general, indoors and in close proximity. Yet no following upswing in hospitals and ICU's and funeral homes followed until months later.

    Remember what happened to case numbers after some relaxation of restrictions last Christmas? We had more confirmed cases in January than in all of 2020 and we got our third wave. Yet in the previous Christmas with no restrictions we didn't see anything like that?

    Italy had their first confirmed postive cases in late January 2020 and sure enough it started to spread like wildfire from those initial clusters in February particularly in the north of the country where hospitals started to get quickly overwhelmed and funeral homes were seeing big business. A similar timeline happened in France, where a church meeting of a couple of thousand people in February really revved up the spread. No doubt the same religious people had attended Christmas events, yet no spread then. Ireland got her first confirmed case in late February and by the end of March we had over 2000 cases and 20 odd dead.

    I really don’t get this attitude that anyone who had this weird and dire respiratory illness in early 2020 is dismissed as somehow imagining it. It’s patronising at best and almost gaslighting at worst.

    "Gaslighting"?😂 ah c'mon. And "dire" is a bit of a stretch with it.

    A significant number of people were reporting being extremely sick and it was dismissed as nonsense by everyone from healthcare professionals to posters online despite the fact it’s very likely it was early cases of COVID and that is backed up by French and other look back research on swabs.

    A "significant number" apparently infected with covid yet on the other hand no rise in hospitalisations and deaths until months later, after confirmed cases kicked off, when actual serious illnesses and deaths started to rise?

    There has been way too much magical thinking in this pandemic.

    You're not wrong there.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I agree with you here. There's no big conspiracy. Governments and large institutions are quite capable of both good and evil alright, but they’re far more capable of utter incompetence.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Just completely ignore the lab results in the article I posted then…

    Le Monde is hardly a sensationalist tabloid prone to making stuff up.

    The explosion in cases may have followed some pathway of getting to vulnerable groups.

    If you think about it logically, the first people getting it may have been asymptomatic, mildly symptomatic or at bedridden by symptoms but not sick enough to seek medical attention as they were very likely younger - or fitter anyway.

    When it got a foothold amongst the elderly, especially in congregated settings, that’s where you started to see huge numbers of hospitalisations and really scary stuff. That pattern repeated in Italy, France, Spain, the U.K. and here.

    My suspicion is that the initial vector was business travel. It seemed to crop up in areas that were highly interconnected for those reasons - Western Europe, big US cities, big Asian cities. The very elderly don’t do a lot of those kinds of trips.

    Then you had various super spreader events as it became more widespread and a lot of those seemed to be driven by very mildly symptomatic younger, healthier people.

    It grows exponentially so the sense of it going “boom” at a certain point is alway how it’s going to seem and when you’ve very large numbers of infections, you start to large numbers in hospital, even if most are just getting a flu like symptoms and nursing themselves better.

    The reality is nobody knows how widespread it may have been early on as the means to test were still very limited. if you’d a few random cases here and there it wouldn’t have initially “boomed”. You can see that when we have managed to get case numbers low, it takes it weeks and months to go crazy again.

    I still think we are misunderstanding how this moves through populations.

    I think it also would have been useful to conduct population wide random and representative tests. We instead stuck to triaged tests targeting only symptomatic people for months and months. So there was never really any picture of what was going on population wide. We might only really get that sense now with mass antigen testing, but are we even capturing that data?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,529 ✭✭✭Dazler97


    You believe what you want I know this was done on purpose, to crash the economy and make people poorer etc



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    And you know how exactly? Without any evidence or even any kind of remotely credible theory, you’re the one who’s believing what you want to believe.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 23,635 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    @Dazler97 you're in the wrong forum - and you won't be back in this one for a while



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I read the original study the Le Monde article references. There was a similar Italian study. It was a bit of news when they came out, but pretty much ignored by the wider world of research, because there are all sorts of issues with backdating infections like this.

    And yep your timeline and spread went pretty much how you described it, however it happened at least two months after the 2019 Xmas bug was doing the rounds. Covid 19 followed the "rules" pretty much. And those business travellers? Many of them would have had the 2019 xmas/new years bug and they didn't isolate, instead they went home to their families and spent Christmas with them. A perfect setting for mass transmission. And it was, for that bug. As I said pretty much everyone I knew had it. People with families and older rellies. It was the subject of a thread here on Boards in the After Hours forum that ran from December into January with a few stragglers in Feb. It was all over the place and in one of the most transmission friendly times of the year, with zero restrictions in place, yet it waited for nearly three months in the case of Ireland to start racking up the obvious casualties?

    Yet in the same period this time last year when restrictions were relaxed over the Christmas period, though were still more restricted than Christmas 2019, we got our third wave of covid with more confirmed infections in Jan/Feb than for the whole of 2020 and a clear upswing in hospital cases and deaths*. That makes no sense. The government even got static over that and it is informing them of precautions today going into this Christmas. Never mind that if it had been covid and had been so widespread in Christmas 2019 into the New Years it would have given at least a few months grace immunity to those that had caught it, yet hospitalisations and deaths started to clearly climb in March and continued to do so. That doesn't make sense either.




    *on a personal note, though I knew of a few very sick and a couple of deaths from Covid in 2020, I knew of a lot more in early 21 and closer to home and in two cases I know of it spread at a family christmas dinner. Of late I know of far more who got positive tests for this pox since it started, though all have been very minor or no symptoms.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What gets me about was the pneumonia diagnosis for my dad, the fact it flew through the extended family and that most of us had taken flu vaccines in Oct / Nov 2019 and that it left me with months of shortness of breath. I was bad enough that if I walked up a hill I was so out of breath I was panting and I kept getting very bad reactions to cold air. It eventually faded tho.

    Also my dad had been in contact with a lot of colleagues who had recently been to China.

    At the time we literally self-isolated anyway, long before it was a thing because the dose was just so bloody awful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭storker


    Cock-up theories tend to be more believable and grounded in reality than conspiracy theories. 😁

    "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence."

    - Someone whose name I've forgotten



  • Posts: 533 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    To be fair, cock ups in a scenario like this are absolutely inevitable. It’s complex. There are so many moving parts.

    The really bright spot in all of this has been the technology side around the vaccines in particular.

    What’s been achieved in getting several pretty effective vaccines out has been remarkable when you consider the scale of what’s been done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,380 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I have talked to a few 40 year olds and they all said they won't take the booster until after Xmas because they don't want to feel poorly over the holidays.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,557 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Hmm. So, instead, maximize your chance of getting Covid by mingling with crowds over the holiday, rather than reducing it via a booster.


    Are they going to continue(?) to mask and remain socially distant? Obey the rules at pubs?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Not everyone thinks the way you do and healthy under 40s are at a much lower risk so such anecdotal evidence is really not at all unexpected. It would really be no great surprise to see uptake in some of these younger age groups below 50%.



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